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Old 10-27-2011, 11:32 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Super nice outdoor tank and what we learn from it

Allright. This is a true eye candy. In case you have not seen this tank here are pictures of it. Before clicking the links make arrangements to faint safely. The second link is in English and there are a lot of details on how the tank is run.

http://www.trebol-a.com/fotografias/?foto=94174224
http://www.trebol-a.com/2006/02/04/outside-tank-article

Nice, amazing, stunning and so on. But what do we learn from this tank 6 years after it descended on us from another dimension?

So basically we have an ultra clean and ultra healthy planted tank under the open (and very strong) sun. The substrate is rich but apparenly that is not enough to feed the many species of plants and that's why he adds fertilizers daily. He has noticed that both low and high fertilizer dosing causes algae.

An interesting point is the evaporation - 1 gallon per day. The tank is topped off every day with RO water.

On the second link please do scroll down a bit and look at the long, long list of plants in that tank. They all live in this 31 gallon tank...Hope you find that to be a hint that is easy to decipher.

Ok. The main thing! This tank receives daily attention. It responds by being beyond beautiful. And it is also beyond completely unstable.

That was easy to see and say. But what I'd like to know is why is it that many of us not only keep on adding fertilizers to the water but also add them in amounts that are much higher than this Spanish sun-bombarded tank. So... In your tanks we have less light but add more fertilizers? Makes no sense. To me the answer is in the off-balanced state of the tanks - we find that under much lower light (not even close to sun light) we must add more fertilizers. The Trebol-a guy finds that he must add only a specific (and much lower) amount of ferts. You will all agree that none of that makes much sense. Well, a complicated system can go bad in many ways. Every auto owner will agree with that, haha. A complicated system apparently can also be unstable in many subtle ways.

My point is, once again, plain vanilla preaching - There is a proper way to setup a planted tank which leads to a very stable and thriving system.

--Nikolay

Last edited by niko; 10-27-2011 at 11:42 AM..
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:54 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Super nice outdoor tank and what we learn from it

I bet it is the flourite in the substrate.
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Old 10-27-2011, 03:14 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Super nice outdoor tank and what we learn from it

Quote:
Originally Posted by niko View Post
...
Ok. The main thing! This tank receives daily attention. It responds by being beyond beautiful. And it is also beyond completely unstable...
I always liked the "10 Minute Tidy". A trim here, a dose there and a little 1/2" hose vacuum there. This is tied into lifestyle, dedication to something. All of us slip sometimes and let the bad guys in.
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Old 10-27-2011, 03:41 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Super nice outdoor tank and what we learn from it

after I see this topic I think maybe out door tank is weird for you so I want to show you this http://aqua.c1ub.net/forum/index.php?topic=101397.0
this guy have tank inside and outside his house. his topic talks about compare between indoor and outdoor tank. when I see the set up page 8 i am kind of shock because he has a lot of tank :P

enjoy
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Old 10-27-2011, 06:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Super nice outdoor tank and what we learn from it

Quote:
There is a proper way to setup a planted tank which leads to a very stable and thriving system.
Correction: There are multiple ways to setup a planted tank which lead to a very stable and thriving system.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:44 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Super nice outdoor tank and what we learn from it

Quote:
Originally Posted by geeks_15 View Post
Correction: There are multiple ways to setup a planted tank which lead to a very stable and thriving system.
Are EI or PPS among them?

Can we hear more details about these ways?

--Nikolay
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Old 10-28-2011, 10:41 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Super nice outdoor tank and what we learn from it

75gallon, 3 54watt T5 bulbs, pressurized CO2, EI ferts, ecocomplete and flourite substrate, homemade poret filter/sump, variety of mostly easy plants, medium hard water (ppm~250), discus and blue rams, weekly 50% water changes, running 3+ years with minimal algae and excellent plant growth, occasional glutaraldehyde dosing to eliminate any beard algae that should pop up.

140 gallon multisection aquarium, 4 bulb CP over some sections, 2 T5 blubs over other sections, single CP bulbs in clamp shop lights over other sections, no CO2, no ferts, plain topsoil covered by plain aquarium gravel, same medium hard water, one pump circulates water through the tank/tanks and pushes water through poret foam sheets, water changes every 6 months (if that often), variety of mostly easy plants, housing a variety of breeding dwarf cichlids, shrimp, and breeding pearl gourami, occasional algae that goes away with benign neglect or occasional manual removal, running 3+ years with good plant growth.

These 2 tanks (along with others I have or have had) have produced good results with minimal hassle. There are other ways to have a successful planted aquarium beyond the 2 ways above.
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Old 10-28-2011, 01:08 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Super nice outdoor tank and what we learn from it

EI (and PPS) do not lead the tank to a stable state. They do not have anything to do with the tank stablity and were not designed with stability as a goal. Their concern is healthy plants. Period.

EI and PPS do not have answers to the issues that show up sooner or later. Both "methods" suggest doing more of the same - fertilizers and water changes. Trebola-s tank is an example of such an approach. The tank needs constant attention.

The natural processes in the tank eventually manage to take place. The inert substrate becomes rich and active over time. At this point it's easy to say that EI or PPS made the tank stable. That is not so because, once again, they do not have a stable tank as a goal. If you just changed a little water in tank and never even looked at it after one year it will reach the same point and will grow healthy plants just fine.

There is only one way to setup a planted tank with stability as a goal. Rich substrate + clean water + good filtration. That's all there is to it. Your second tank is an example of that. Dutch tanks are like that. All ADA tanks are an example of that. All ADG planted tanks are an example of that. It is beyond me why most of us still believe that dumping fertilizers in the water is a reasonable thing to do.

Rich substrate + clean water + good filtration - that is how it is in Nature. On the other hand we have EI and PPS. They call for polluting the tank water with chemicals. We label any body of water that has even a little N or P as "polluted" don't we? But somehow in our tanks we have accepted that we must have considerable concentrations of at least 7 chemicals.

And for the people that think I'm some kind of EI hater: I do have an EI tank that I've ran for 7 years now. It is full of plants and I trim every single week and collect about 1 lb. of clippings. The "minimal algae" in that tank never goes away. I dump my dry ferts, I religiously change 20 gallons (out of 50) every week. The tank clears up from all algae if I accelerate the ferts/water changes to 2 times a week. Starving makes the algea creep up. Just like Trebola and his gorgeous outdoor tank I have to keep my tank clean. Not the natural processes in it. That's pretty pathetic for a person that thinks he knows something about planted tanks. That's EI in full glory.

--Nikolay
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:57 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Super nice outdoor tank and what we learn from it

and that is why you should turn your tank over 8-10 times, flow also plays a part.... more light, equals more ferts equals more c02....... I also see buying filters to small for there tanks. i'm sorry but that so many gph per a hour is when the canister is empy, the return pump part at 0(zero!) head volume, people don't even think about the pump loosing pressure as it as to push water up so many feet.

Rich substrate + clean water+ good filter that does 8-10 X turn over gph, and observation of tank of plants and fish, is what i observes to a stable tank.
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Old 10-28-2011, 10:36 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Super nice outdoor tank and what we learn from it

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishyjoe24 View Post
...Rich substrate + clean water+ good filter that does 8-10 X turn over gph, and observation of tank of plants and fish, is what i observes to a stable tank.
Yes. That's rocket science for most people. Most of us would rather pollute the water with the 7+ chemicals we have decided plants can't live without.

--Nikolay
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