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Old 10-30-2011, 06:32 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default A beautiful picture.

And a question.



What do you think my question is?

--Nikolay
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:36 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: A beautiful picture.

The boat looks Photochopped to me.
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:43 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: A beautiful picture.

That is some nice water. I wonder what fish live in it
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Old 10-30-2011, 09:09 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: A beautiful picture.

What filter media was used? Wha. Only thing notable about the picture is the plants growing in mosaic. The overall controlling factors of plant distribution are flow and substrate. Some streams tend to have variable substrates. Plants growing inside the mosaic with a beneficial substrate remains stable whereas plants growing outside the patches with poor anchorage possibilities, get swept away.

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Old 10-30-2011, 10:36 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: A beautiful picture.

Niko, I know what you are thinking, but if I tell it will spoil the fun.
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Old 10-30-2011, 11:42 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: A beautiful picture.

I think I know the question as well. Our springs here have often made me wonder. But I always thought it would be comparing apples to oranges, or at least oranges to grapefruits, due to the size differentials. Not to mention the un-natural numbers of species we often grow( or try to grow) together. But perhaps not?...
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Old 10-30-2011, 12:42 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: A beautiful picture.

Aha! We have too many different plants in a glass box. This glass box is not a real lake or a river. So to keep the plants alive we need to... get away from what Nature does. Sounds reasonable, I agree. What does not sound reasonable is why do we try to go against Nature. Avoiding common sense too. We try to emulate Nature without emulating Nature. Stuffing incompatible species in the same tank and doing excessive things to keep everything going. Once again - here I attack our ways of thinking. Or rather - NOT thinking.

My question is:

How much fertilizers we think the clear water on the picture has?

I bet very, VERY low. Nothing close to the high concentrations most of us strive to maintain.


Our tanks are not a river. Our tanks are different. Tom Barr has told us that according to all his scientific knowledge we must have high concentrations of chemicals. Because it makes plants grow.

Really?

I wonder what Amano thinks of dumping spoons of ferts in his tanks. What he thinks of EI. Or PPS. Hope someone asks him about these questions some day and records that on video too. Ask him what he thinks of giving those two a try in his big tank too.

As I harp on about the same thing all over again (Rich substrate + Clean water + Good filtration) I really see how easy it is to see that dumping dry chemicals in a glass box with a few gallons of water makes little sense. Take a second look at the above picture. THAT is clean water. There is all there is to it.

Nice picture, isn't it. Now if you'd excuse me for a second. I have to go dump a few teaspoons of chemicals in my 55. If you are not busy doing the same to your tank take alook at this video. The words you are looking for are "serene" and "pristine". They do not apply to our tanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nafwnMMMsHc

And another video. You must have seen it already. Michael does not know anything about this hobby's virtuous ways and considerations. His little tank emulates Nature. The water contains no added fertilizers. It is... yes, "pristine":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjZThj5YG04

--Nikolay

Last edited by niko; 10-30-2011 at 12:52 PM..
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:31 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: A beautiful picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by niko View Post
My question is:

How much fertilizers we think the clear water on the picture has?

I bet very, VERY low. Nothing close to the high concentrations most of us strive to maintain.
While I'm sure the levels are lower than what we dump in using the EI method, you must admit that the levels have got to be higher than your average aquarium that is not being fertilized. Plus the sheer size of natural bodies of water tends to maintain those levels. Think of all the organics decomposing underneath those trees!

You use the word "pristine", and the definition that comes to my mind is "untouched". So, yes, natural habitats are often "pristine", but they are also very complicated. Nature isn't a closed system. Stuff flows in and out of these habitats in a way that we simply cannot recreate. But in our closed systems, we'll be responsible for replenishing the nutrients that our plants use. Mother nature sure isn't going to do it for us...

So, do some of us over-fertilize in the name of unnaturally fast growth? I'm sure some do. That doesn't mean that it's more natural to NOT fertilize.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:05 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default

I think the point niko is (constantly) trying to make isn't don't fertilize, but that fertilization doesn't come from the water column (as it does with most planted aquariums) in nature. A nutrient rich, biologically active substrate is what he is trying to push, I believe. I really don't think there are too many natural bodies of water with the nutrient levels of my high tech ei tank in my living room, the ones that do are most likely polluted.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:17 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: A beautiful picture.

What I'm desperately trying to do is to make people think.

If you think that Tom Barr invented EI you are wrong. It was a practice that existed before he was even born. How's that for a homegrown novel idea and a small, garden variety, celebrity status?

What ADA did was to logically develop a system that works with all the parts together. Nothing is way off balance. And yes - the system is not exactly simple, but it has been designed in such a way that you don't need to really know anything about the processes behind the scenes.

In the US we do know a lot about what happens behind the scenes. But we stick to dumping chemicals in the water. That inevitably leads to problems. It hinders the progress of the hobby. THAT is what aggravates me. Do you think that these guys know more than us in the US about the intricate processes in a planted tank?
http://www.cau-aqua.net/index.php?lang=en


Your suspicion, as well as mine, is that they actually may know less. Especially if Tom runs into the playfield with his micromols per liter, lumens over seconds per angstrom, and what not other real scientific data. But there is not a single US website that can show a group of aquascapers with tanks like those above. Sad.

To try to get people to use more common sense I resort to showing pretty pictures and asking questions that have obvious answers.

And here's an ugly picture:
http://entertainment.webshots.com/ph...02609000VWqAhl

It was taken from this thread:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...-viet-nam.html

Look at the mud in which these plants live. Surely in a planted tank we need to do something to manage the stuff that oozes out of it. What about completely ignoring the mud and instead start dumping chemicals in the water? ...Really?

And to answer this question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaTrueDave View Post
While I'm sure the levels are lower than what we dump in using the EI method, you must admit that the levels have got to be higher than your average aquarium that is not being fertilized.
No. They do not need to be higher than an unfertilized aquarium. Even for exotic, "hard to grow", stem plants.

Examples:

1. This has publicized tests of 0 (zero) all nutrients:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooakn1rFHaY

As do all these. Zero concentrations of... everything in the water. Printed in every AquaJournal starting from issue #1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0dQrSu2VSg

2. Getting closer to home. A tank right here in DFW. Ask Michael (he posts here on APC) how he fertilizes this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjZThj5YG04

--Nikolay

Last edited by niko; 11-05-2011 at 10:41 AM..
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