[Wet Thumb Forum]-Can High-light plants and Low-Tech Mix?

[Ger]

I plan on setting up my 45 with a soil-gravel substrate, and would currently prefer to not go the CO2 route. Since my window is on the north side of the house under a huge Beech tree, there's little in the way of natural sunlight. I would like to grow medium to high light plants. Due to lack of direct sunlight, I am considering a 2x96w setup (yes, 4wpg!). Is this asking for green water? Does anyone have high-light, soil, no CO2 setups? If so, what lighting do you use?

Thanks,

-- Ger

[Ger]

I do intend to have a high quantity of plants in this setup (an aquascape attempt). Until now, I wasn't entirely clear what limitations I might have on my selection. So basically, most stem plants won't fare well? I had been considering D. diandra or Stargrass, but I like the idea of using Water Wisteria in its place.

In a given 12 hour photoperiod, would it be better or worse to have X watts of light for the first and last third of the photoperiod, and 2X watts for the middle third? (Although I had read somewhere that algae could be checked by tirnung off the lights for a short duration in the middle of the photoperiod).

[nativeplanter]

Hi Ger,

I do indeed think it's possible, but you'll find that most people don't talk about it. I grow only native US plants in my tanks, and many of the ones I like could be called high light. I have about 2.7 watts per gallon, and think I could easily have more.

I have found that the key, in my case, is controlling my phosphorus load. My tap water has phosphorus in it. If I use just the tap water, I get a huge green water explosion. I have heard advice on other boards about dealing with this with adding nitrates, etc. (to get a 10:1 ratio), and getting the plants to grow faster, but without the added CO2(which I refuse to deal with), I don't think I could get enough growth to use all the nutrients.

So, while not exactly low-tech, I use a lot of DI water and reconstitute it to have the hardness I want. I'm sure that in some areas this is not necessary. I have also used phosphorus-absorbing media from the fish store, which worked OK. I really think that the trick in my case is to keep the nutrients at a level where the plants can outcompete the algae, not the other way around (keeping the plants growing fast enough so they can outcompete for all those extra nutrients). I still have to clean the glass on occasion, but that's it.

I'm cheap, so I use regular output fluorescent tubes; a mix of cool white and warm white. I build my own canopies by using a ballastand wiring it all myself. It's really, really easy. A ballast can be raided from a shop-light or similar inexpensive fixture, or I have found them for not too much money at a lighting supply store. I don't get anything from aquarium supply places if I can help it; anything with the word "aquarium" on it seems to cost many times what it otherwise would. When I build the canopies, I put the ballast outside, on the back, so that it doesn't add to the heat inside the tank. This way I can also use 2 or 3 ballasts on a tank without them getting in the way. Just make sure they won't get wet.

I haven't done it myself, but you can also look into "over-driven normal output" (ODNO) lights. Essentially, if you take an electronic ballast that is made for more than one bulb (not a magnetic ballast), you can wire it so that each bulb gets the power for more than one bulb. So, for example, a two-bulb ballast can overdrive one bulb (getting something like 1.7 times the light), and a 4-bulb ballast can overdrive 2 bulbs or even 1 bulb. Bulb life is shorter this way, but I have been told that it is not dangerous (fire-wise). I've been told that bulbs are run at a lower wattage than they can take because it makes them blow out faster, and that the cost of paying someone to replace the bulbs high up in the ceiling makes it less expensive to have more but dimmer bulbs that blow out less frequently. In fact, there are special ballasts for aquariums that deliver this kind of power without the funky wiring, but... they cost a lot more... There are instructions on this all over. Search for "ODNO" and you'll find a lot.

Have fun!

-Laura

[Roger Miller]

Ger,

I think the problem with aquascaping in a soil-based tank is simply that the aquarist's goals in a soil-based tank and in an aquascaped tank are usually divergent. Normally with a soil-based tank people are looking for a way of maintaining a healthy aquarium with the least effort. In an aquascaped tank people are looking for the most attractive tank and are willing to put in some additional effort to make it so. The goals are difficult to balance, especially since some common standards in aquascaped tanks preclude techniques that work well in soil-based tanks.

That doesn't mean that it can't be done. Ellen Parker's small tank entry in the 2002 AGA contest is a beautiful soil-based tank. Giancarlo Podio keeps a beautiful low light, low tech (not necessarily soil-based) tank that he has pictured here somewhere. The old photos of burgeoning planted tanks that first sparked my interest in aquatic plants back in the mid 60's were (I think) mostly soil-based and used natural light. The tanks that built the reputation of the Dutch aquarium did not have high light and injected CO2.

The problem is that balancing both goals requires a very high level of skill both as an aquarist and as an aquascaper. Plus you need the patience of Job. The challenge is a pretty big one.


Roger Miller

[dwalstad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ger:
I would like to grow medium to high light plants. Due to lack of direct sunlight, I am considering a 2x96w setup (yes, 4wpg!). Is this asking for green water? Does anyone have high-light, soil, no CO2 setups? If so, what lighting do you use? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would consider two of my tanks that get sunlight a "highlight tanks". Fluorescent light, even 4 wpg, pales in comparison to sunlight! I have two of these tanks with a variety of plants- Val, large/small Swordplants, Sagittaria, Rotalia, Anubias, duckweed, Water Sprite, etc.

Stem plants can use the light, but may not do well without CO2 injection. Therefore, I would recommend that you try floating and emergent plants in this tank. I think Water Wisteria and Water Sprite are lovely plants for this kind of tank. They'll use the light, don't need water CO2, and will protectively shade those plants that don't need 4 wpg. Also, Val and Myriophyllum species can prosper with this amount of light.

With this kind of lighting you'll need some healthy plant growth to prevent algae.

[nativeplanter]

Dear Ger,

I have an idea. Instead of going gung-ho with this on your 45 gallon, why not try converting your 15 gallon to a soil tank and stop the CO2? Or, you could take your soil 20 gallon/ 36 watt tank, and increase the wattage to 3 watts per gallon. I think the problems you are having in that tank may just be that there isn't enough light - you have 1.8 watts per gallon there.

By fiddling with the smaller tanks for a few months, you can get an idea of what you might want to do in the big tank. You can also change things around and practice without it being a huge deal. You'll get a better feel for the plants that you want to grow in the big tank, and can work up your design plans in the meantime. You might also reduce any stress you might encounter because, after all, these are your "practice" tanks.

-Laura

[Ger]

I plan on setting up my 45 with a soil-gravel substrate, and would currently prefer to not go the CO2 route. Since my window is on the north side of the house under a huge Beech tree, there's little in the way of natural sunlight. I would like to grow medium to high light plants. Due to lack of direct sunlight, I am considering a 2x96w setup (yes, 4wpg!). Is this asking for green water? Does anyone have high-light, soil, no CO2 setups? If so, what lighting do you use?

Thanks,

-- Ger

[dwalstad]

I agree with Laura and Roger....well-put answers to a confusing issue.

[newmang]

My chain swords (E. tenellus) are growing well in my 2-month old Walstad-style tank at the moment. So what do I do? resign myself to them fading away eventually as the organic matter in the substrate runs out?

Anyway I thought chain swords _were_ emergent plants? The one's I bought were certainly cultivated out of the water.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diana Walstad:

In a natural tank (no CO2 injection), you're limited to plants that can grow well without adding CO2. This means emergent plants (yes, duckweed, floating Riccia, Water Wisteria). You need good growers like Amazon swordplants and Cryptocoryne wendtii. I've found chain swords to do very poorly in my tanks.

Yes, you may get chain swords or Lilaeopsis to grow well for several months, because the soil will be giving off enough CO2. However, the effect is temporary (the easily digestible organic matter in soil eventually gets "used up").

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[dwalstad]

[quote]Originally posted by newmang:
My chain swords (E. tenellus) are growing well in my 2-month old Walstad-style tank at the moment. So what do I do? resign myself to them fading away eventually as the organic matter in the substrate runs out?

Unless you are determined to have excellent growth of E. tenellus in your tank, you can relax. I've got tanks that are 10 years old and the plants are doing fine. It's just that some plant species (like E. tenellus) may start to "fade away" over time. For example, the three Cryptocoryne blassi that were doing so well in my 45 gal (with potting soil) for first year are no longer growing. But other plants are doing well. My Ruffled Sword is having babies and the Sagittaria graminea has sent up bloom. You just can't put all your hopes on one plant species. And if your goal is a carpet of E. tenellus (or some other species), you may be disappointed. I've never had any long-term luck setting up "carpets".

Potting soil has a ton of organic matter that will generate lots of CO2 for plants the first year or so. But you're right that it all depends on the how much you feed fish, the type of soil, etc. Neil Frank got good plant growth (E. tenellus, I believe) stimulated by substrate CO2 for 5 years from his peat/sand substrate.

I feed my fish very heavily, but it will never be enough to maintain plants that can't compete well for CO2. That's just a fact. If you look at page 88 in my book, you'll see that carbon is the one plant nutrient that fishfood provides the least of. That's why tanks with CO2 injection and added fertilizers get spectacular growth of many difficult-to-grow plant species.

As to your confusion about E. tenellus and emergent growth....I need to clarify this. Yes, you are right that is a plant species that can grow emergent, but if it is growing submerged (fully underwater in your tank), then it doesn't count (in terms of algae control). When I recommended using emergent plant growth, I meant using emergent plants that are also exposed to air [I devoted an entire chapter in my book explaining why]. Emergent plants exposed to air grow much better (sometimes 10 fold better) than emergent plants that are grown fully submerged.

So if you want plant growth to compete with algae growth, then I strongly recommend that you have some emergent plant growth. This can be floating plants or just letting stem plants come above the water surface. My favorites are Water Sprite, Water Wisteria, Rotalia macranda, duckweed, and a baby Ruffled sword- all growing exposed to air in various tanks of mine.

Another bonanaza with emergent growth is that they shade the water and cut down on excess light. Remember that most plant species that are growing submerged don't need much light. The combination of intense lighting, emergent growth of some plants, and then submerged plants below is the way I try to set up all my tanks. That way there is enough total plant growth to compete effectively with algae.