Miss Fishy

Robert, I will post some picures of the Glosso in the indoor tank later today.

Glosso grows much more slowly without CO2 injection, of course, but mine is healthy and seems very happy with my tanks. In its natural habitat, Glosso can grow emergent on wet ground, in shallow water and completely submerged, so it doesn't surprise me that it is possible for it to grow successfully underwater without the aid of emergent leaves or CO2 injection.

From Alex.

 

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Miss Fishy

Here are the pictures of the Glosso in my indoor tank (sorry about the poor quality photos; I'm still learning about aquarium photography):



They were tanken when it was growing vertically. It is now horizontal again but I don't have any very recent photos to post.

Here is a picture of the whole tank (for a list of plant species, water parameters etc. see my thread about this tank):



From Alex.

imported_russell

i was at first shocked to see that you could pull this off. i will still have to see it growing horizontal to be a true believer

good job anyhow though.

Miss Fishy

Thanks! I'll take some more photos of the Glosso in a couple of weeks. It is looking a bit ragged at the moment; I left it too long without thinning it and it started to grow over itself and the lower plants got smothered.

Still on the subject of Glosso... I was looking through the Nature Aquarium World books a few days ago, and noticed that many of the tanks, especially in books 2 and 3, have Glosso that is growing vertically. It was surprising to see how different the same species can look from tank to tank, even when the tanks have the same lighting, substrate, CO2 and fertiliser levels as each other and the Glosso is not shaded.

So just what does make Glosso grow horizontally? If it is lighting levels as many people have told me, why does it grow tall in some of Amano's tanks with their intensive lighting, and why did it start to grow vertically in my tank during summer when my tank gets more sunlight? Anyone have any ideas?

From Alex.

aquabillpers

From what I have read, glosso seems to grow horizontally under strong light and vertically with less light ("reaching for the sun"?).

Here's one of the several links I found: http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plant.../msg00387.html

But some have said that they have grown it horizontally under low light.

I do know that E. stellata grows taller under higher light. I can see that just 10 feet away.
But that's probably a different thing.

I'm glad for the chance to add to the confusion.


Bill

Jane of Upton

Actually, since learning that Alex was growing glosso, I decided to try it, too, and have had great success. I got a small bit that was grown submerged at the BAS auction. I think the fact that it was NOT grown emersed was key - I'd tried glosso before that was emersed-grown, and failed at it very quickly during the transition to submergent growth. I've had it going since early November (about 3 months) in a Walstad-style 15 gal tank, and recently upgraded the lighting to a Coralife 65 w 24" with a 6700 K bulb, on for 11 hrs per day. It was very slow to get going, but since no one dug it up, and I got some TINY algae eating snails to keep it clean, its finally settled in. In the last 6 weeks, its started taking off (*relatively) - I've had to cut back runners that were scrambling up a piece of driftwood, and replant them to shape the lawn-in-progress. It is VERY small, and hugs the bottom (with the exception of climbing up the driftwood) VERY tightly. (I have GOT to get photo-capable!)

In fact, given the success, I recently obtained a large amount of glosso from one of our members here. I know he uses "high tech" methods, and that this glosso had overgrown itself. I was struck by how large each plantlet is! Literally, there is a difference of 2-3 TIMES the leaf size! Plus, his from the CO2-enriched, fertilized conditions is a brighter apple-green. My low-tech grown stuff is a darker green, about like a young oak leaf. The size difference was quite remarkable! I've planted this new glosso in my 30 gal tank, and hope it will settle in nicely.

Back to the topic, for me, "Low Tech" includes not only Walstad-style setups, but Quackenbush-style setups. In the Q-style, a plain granular baked clay (kitty litter that stays fairly granular in water, and has been tested for pH swings and turbidity when submerged) is supplemented with slow-release fertilizer (I use a type like Osmocote, but rated for even slower release). This layer, 1-1.5", is CAPPED with fine sand to keep the nutrients out of the water column. This part is crucial to prevent algae blooms. There is very little exchange between the water column and the substrate. For reasons that the articles I read went into in depth, the substrate can still bring oxygen in via the plant roots, and the high chealating/ionizing capacitance of the soil. I still run two tanks in this style, because I set them up before finding the El Natural forum here, which prompted me to read the Walstad book. The longest Quackenbush style tank I had running was 6 years. It got a mix of a single 15w NO flourescent, and relfected sunlight in a west-facing room. I believe its demise was when I removed a water sprite from next to a huge (soccer ball volume) amazon sword, and clay layer turned anoxic, furthered by the sword roots dying, and it eventually crashed. But, during those 6 years, I used to get enough plant growth to trade the LFS for lots of fish, fishfood and water conditioner. My hobby basically sustained itself once set up. Plus the LFS owner loved my plants! I regularly brought in java fern, water sprite, some saggitaria and java moss. He was dumbfounded when I told him it was a 10 gallon! I grew "easy" plants, but now realize I was just intimidated out of trying anything else. Plus, on a limited budget (in college) I didn't have the funds to "try" something unless I was pretty sure of success. Between prunings, one could barely see the fish. I had Rainbowfish that I had to give away because they got too big, and were raucous when spawning. I also had White Clouds, and some eggs survived (very few given the huge amount of spawning that happened) and I raised a second generation, too! My cories died of old age (nearly 6 yrs old) in that tank. My two current Q-style tanks are not as successful, but they're both under artificial light, and I realize I may have lucked out with the "perfect balance" on that first tank.

I probably run, on average, at least around 3 wpg (high for an el natural) of light on both the Walstad and Quackenbush tanks. I also combat algae with snails, freshwater shrimp, and floating plants which seem to have an inhibitory effect on many algaes. Plant growth IS slow, but I've been experimenting with other types of plants, with a good amount of success.

For me, Factors which keep me in Low-Tech land are

1) Cost. My hobby budget is pretty low right now, and the investment in CO2 equipment is prohibitive right now. I haven't ruled it out, but its not in my near future.

2) Time (in the tank). Right now, I only do tank maintenance infrequently. I occasionally trim plants, and do a water change, but I can be lazy and let it go for a very long time. I love to feed my fish and sit and watch, and the Walstad method "allows" me to feed liberally (within reason). I also don't test my water as often as I probably should, but I've learned to learn a lot by observation. Recently, I noticed some pinholes in my M. umbrosum (which grows like a weed). So, I did a trim, and a water change, and put some KCl (certain salt substitutes, needed to search to find them without anti-caking ingredients) into the water with the water change. The problem seems to have cleared up.

3) Time (away from the tank). Also, I know I can leave my aquariums on a moment's notice without having to worry that there will be a pH spike due to complications with CO2, or some other water chemistry crisis. My elderly father is needing more frequent visits, and I am self-employed, so this type of Aquarium keeping keeps with the schedule I've designed, in which I can go away for a week on fairly short notice. I don't have to enlist the help of anyone to make sure my tanks are OK (barring a heater malfunction). I've come home to find out that the power has been out, and when the light timers started up again, its caused all my tanks to switch to the "night shift", but effectively, no harm done. The fish are regularly well fed, and there are enough tiny critters in the tanks that the fish are fine without being fed for a week. When I've gone away for longer, my BF came in and dumped pre-measured feedings (in a stack of dixie cups) into the tanks, and all was well.

I'm sure I'll think of more, but I've chewed everyone's ear off enough today!
-Jane

Jane of Upton

OK, I've had a question about the 3 wpg on the El Natural tanks. This is the average. Currently, I have one that is technically running at 4.3 wpg - a 65 w Coralife over the 15 gal. Others are probably around 2.0 - 2.5 wpg. BUT, I have floating plants, and while I try to keep them thinned to the point that there is some continual movement from surface flow, so there are no permanent shady spots, I'm often remiss with this. So, I'll bet the water column really isn't getting the full shot of light it could. Its VERY difficult to calculate "WPG", given all the types of fixtures, the quality of reflectors, etc. I also have 26 w over a 10 gal, but because its an AH Supply kit, it really looks MUCH brighter than another 10 I have which runs (technically) 28 watts. There is no comparison. Next time, I'll get the AH Supply kit with the great reflectors, too. I cheaped out and got the 2x13w one (rather than the 36 w w/the spiffy reflector) and put it into an existing strip light housing. I put foil tape into the existing housing to reflect better, but its not the lovely parabolic reflectors AH sells.

OK, just thought I'd head off any questions about the 3 wpg. With all the floating plants (Salvinia auriculata, Frogbit, and some dregs of Duckweed) I'm sure the actual light penetration is much less.

I have not had problems with things getting leggy - if anything, stuff in the tank with the big lighting upgrade is doing very well. The a. reineckii (Red Temple Plant) is such a hot pink/purple underneath that its beginning to look too garish for the rest of the tank. Internode length is still between 1" and 1.25", it seems tighter since the upgrade.

The one plant I'm having trouble with is Didiplis diandra (Water hedge). The old growth is blanching. New growth is a nice light green, but the older growth does not look good. I don't think its LACK of light, since when I trim it and replant, the growing tips, even now "shorter" show the same thing. I think its starved for nutrients. But, it was exhibiting this behavior to a lesser extent before the lighting upgrade. H. costata in this tank is looking beautiful, so I might replace the diandra with more H. costata.

Also in the 10 gal with the 2x13w kit, I've got some Hemianthus callictroides that is growing at a snails pace. It looks healthy, but each small piece I planted (a stem w/ 3-4 leaves each) has maybe put out one new leaf in 6 weeks. Its growing, but OH, so slowly. I'm going to wait with this, because I hope that once fully settled in, it will pick up speed like the glosso did.

-Jane

Jane of Upton

OK, so here's a difference between "High Tech" (which I too would define as using CO2 supplementation, and shifting the limiting factors on plant growth) and "Low Tech". The Low Tech setups FORCE you to learn patience (or pull all your hair out in frustration), LOL! The biggest thing I've found is the time it takes for a plant to become "established". For this reason, I no longer put emersed grown plants directly in an el natural tank - the transition time is fraught with algae problems, and can affect the rest of the tank in a very adverse way. I have a small transition tank in the basement under my plant lights. There, the plants will undergo their transition (in a Walstad mini setup) with a team of snails and a few shrimp to keep the dying emergent leaves cleaned up, and the algae at bay. I really think a lot of my problems could be traced back to the transition period - it just seemed to upset the proverbial apple cart of my el natural setups far too much.

Whew, more than my 2¢ worth.
-Jane

Matt S.

Hi, reposting from an El Natural thread when I realized this was my 2 cents worth on this more philosohical question.

The low tech approach attempts to work as closely as possible within the parameters that nature gives us in the tank in order to create a balanced and self sustaining ecosystem -or at least a "low maintenance" ecosystem. As noted by Jane, the high tech approach generally represents an increasing manipulation of parameters (adding CO2, ferts and so on) in order to lift those natural limits on plant growth. These are often presented as diametrically opposite approaches, however it is possible to concieve of a gradient between low tech and high tech of increasing manipulation of various parameters. Even the low techies here will dose to change unfavourable water parameters and nuke algae with various concoctions.

Wiskey's tank (mentioned above and the focus of a monster thread in the El Natural forum) is a great example of a combined approach falling somewhere in the middle of the spectrum.

A tank can also fall at different points along the low/high tech spectrum at different points in time. My 100 G tank started out high tech: JBL base substrate, CO2 injection, High light & fertilization. Things grew like crazy. Then I got lazy. The CO2 ran out, I stopped fertilizing, I didn't change the PL lights for a year, I dropped water change frequencies to once in three months and let the fish poo do the fertilizing. Somewhere in the middle of that process I read Diana's great book and decided that this wasn't laziness - it was an Approach.

Anyway, thats just my attempt to muddy the water.

littleguy

Well I'm really late jumping on here, but I wanted to throw in my 5 cents.

Some people like to distinguish the two types using hard numbers, parameters, equipment, substrates, lighting, CO2, words like "artificial" and "natural", and so forth. I say these are all secondary characteristics.

To me, the primary distinction is PHILOSOPHY. The equipment, substrate, etc. are simply METHODS to achieving the philosophy but should not be confused for the philosophy itself.

As I see it:
A low-tech aquarist wants to minimize the amount of required human interaction with the tank to maintain stability. Aquarium self-stability is the highest priority to the low-tech aquarist. As Whiskey said - the plants [and other things] aren't micromanaged. They're left to their own devices for weeks or months. As Jane said, she can leave home for the weekend at a moment's notice and not worry about the system crashing.

The high-tech aquarist makes aesthetics the highest priority of the tank. They want to be able to paint a picture and use the aquarium as a canvas. They'd like to have a wide variety of paints (plants and fish) available. They don't mind putting in extra effort (e.g. pruning, monitoring, dosing, etc.) to build the vision of beauty they imagine in their mind.

Of course there is a spectrum between the philosophies, and most of us espouse elements of both.

Now there are some common METHODS people use to achieving these philosophies.

The "El Natural" or Walstad approach is a complete package for achieving low-tech ideals - namely self-stability. The Quackenbush style is another method to achieving a low-tech tank.

Tom Barr and many other folks have developed and refined other approaches that allow one to achieve the high-tech philosophy successfully. These methods specify a dosing regime (e.g. the estimative index EI, etc.), CO2 levels, nutrient levels, water change schedules, etc. But these are just a means to achieving the philosophy.

In the end, yes, there's commonality in the equipment, substrate, etc. used by low-tech or hi-tech folks. But to me the equipment doesn't define the style as much the philosophy does.

 

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