[Wet Thumb Forum]-Calcium dosing to increase GH

[dwalstad]

Thanks everybody for your input on where to get calcium chloride. Big help!

[aquabillpers]

The easiest way to insure that the CA/MG ratio is correct is to use Seachem's Equilibrium. That also contains K and Fe.

Just add the powder and stir.

Bill

[javalee]

Billpers, Equilibrium's ions are all derived from sulfate, i.e. there's a lot of sulfate in each dose; I asked a Seachem rep about this. I think Diana was saying it's best to avoid adding much sulfate, hence the advantage of CaCl2. I already had a high iron content to my water so Equilibrium would have probably initiated an algae bloom. For others who don't have to worry H2S production in the substrate and high iron content, Equilibrium would be much easier.

[aquabillpers]

Hi,

Thanks for your comments.

I have never heard of Equilibrium causing any problems in aquaria. There is always a first time, though.

Compounds containing sulfates are commonly dosed in high tech tanks. K2SO4, MgSO4, and CaSO4 come to mind. I was unable to find any negative comments about sulfates in the APD archives.

Equilibrium contains very little iron, probably not even enough to remediate any significant deficiency. And many say that excess nutrients in a balance planted aquarium do not cause algae.


Bill

[dwalstad]

Sulfates would generally not cause problems, especially in High Tech tanks with their inorganic substrates.

However, it might cause trouble at high dosages in a tank with a potting soil substrate, which is usually quite anaerobic. Some sulfates would migrate into the soil and could be converted to H2S. The result might be inhibited plant growth.

Equilibrium might be fine for 99% of tanks, but the El Naturale tanks would be the most vulnerable to potential H2S problems. Calcium chloride (CaCl2) doesn't have the potential downside of a product that's loaded with sulfates.

[aquabillpers]

Sulfates would generally not cause problems, especially in High Tech tanks with their inorganic substrates.

However, it might cause trouble at high dosages in a tank with a potting soil substrate, which is usually quite anaerobic. Some sulfates would migrate into the soil and could be converted to H2S. The result might be inhibited plant growth.

Equilibrium might be fine for 99% of tanks, but the El Naturale tanks would be the most vulnerable to potential H2S problems. Calcium chloride (CaCl2) doesn't have the potential downside of a product that's loaded with sulfates.

Not to be disputatious, but I have been using Equilibrium in "el Natural" tanks with some success, for me, anyway.

Is the amount of sulfate contained in Equilibrium considered "high"?

Calcium chloride eliminates "potential" downsides, but it doesn't help to maintain the magnesium level, which is typically done, if needed, with epsom salts, a sulfate.

Since I am using Equilibrium, I would really like some information on problems that it has caused to other users.


Bill

[Dave P]

Not to be disputatious, but I have been using Equilibrium in "el Natural" tanks with some success, for me, anyway.

Indeed, the use of Equilibrium in 'El Natural' aquariums may not be problematic if the soil underlayer is mostly aerobic. What promotes an anaerobic microbial environment in submerged soils? I would have to think that the following would play a role:

1) Soil depth -- the deeper the soil layer, the greater the propensity for an anaerobic microbial environment.

2) Soil type -- denser soils, I would have to think, would limit the circulation of water throughout the soil layer, promoting an anaerobic environment.

3) Plant root density -- the roots of aquatic plants deliver oxygen to the surrounding rhizosphere. This favors an aerobic microbial environment. Fewer roots would mean smaller and more isolated rhizospheres which would in turn favor the anaerobic environment.

4) Water circulation -- if water circulation is poor in the water column, oxygenated water will have a harder time reaching the soil layer. This would promote an anaerobic environment.

If your aquarium has abundant plant growth with robust root penetration throughout the soil, sufficient water circulation, and a soil layer that is not too deep or too dense, then the use of Equilibrium may pose no problem at all.

However, if your aquarium differs in one or more of these conditions, then there is a greater chance that some of the sulfates contained within Equilibrium will be anaerobically reduced to H2S.

I think Diana was suggesting a solution to people "plagued" with soft water (I can't believe I just typed that... ), which would work regardless of the soil depth, soil type, root density and water circulation.

Is the amount of sulfate contained in Equilibrium considered "high"?

It's my understanding that *all* of the cationic species (Ca, Mg, Fe, Mn, K) contained in Equilibrium are bound to sulfate. It's nothing but sulfate salts.

Calcium chloride eliminates "potential" downsides, but it doesn't help to maintain the magnesium level, which is typically done, if needed, with epsom salts, a sulfate.

Since the desirable concentration of magnesium is considerably less than that of calcium, the amount of Epsom's salts needed to achieve this is likewise less. I guess if one was really concerned about limiting the concentration of sulfate, he/she could try to special order MgCl2, but this would be considerably more expensive than picking up a box of Epsom's salts from the drugstore. Alternatively, you could also use a product such as Seachem's Reef Advantage Magnesium, which is a combination of both MgCl2 and MgSO4.

Dave

[aquabillpers]

Indeed, the use of Equilibrium in 'El Natural' aquariums may not be problematic if the soil underlayer is mostly aerobic.

snip

If your aquarium has abundant plant growth with robust root penetration throughout the soil, sufficient water circulation, and a soil layer that is not too deep or too dense, then the use of Equilibrium may pose no problem at all.

Thanks for the explanation!

Unless I'm missing something, it would then seem that planted tanks that are set up under Diana's guidelines would tend to have aerobic substrates, at least those that did not use dense soils. Right?

I also don't know how much sulfate would be too much. There are numerous substances in nature that we ingest in small quantities every day without causing us difficulties; the same substances taken in larger quantities would be fatal. I wonder if there is enough in Equilibrium to cause a problem.

Thanks again.

Bill

[Dave P]

Unless I'm missing something, it would then seem that planted tanks that are set up under Diana's guidelines would tend to have aerobic substrates, at least those that did not use dense soils. Right?

Rather than using the terms 'aerobic' and 'anaerobic', it might be more constructive to define the ideal 'El Natural' substrate as one that possesses a redox gradient that does not exceed ~ -200 mV at it's lowest end. This permits some nice side benefits such as denitrification, manganese solubilization and iron solubilization without fostering conditions that permit the reduction of sulfate. In practice, it's not so easy to achieve this and it doesn't take much to push the redox lower. Many 'El Natural' aquariums (mine included) have areas where sulfate reduction is occuring. Aquatic plants can mitigate this to an extent; however, it wouldn't take much to overwhelm this balance. That's where the concern of having excess sulfate in the water column comes into play. As I've seen over the past few months, one 'El Natural' aquarium can differ quite dramatically from another in ways that are not so obvious. (In my opinion, that's what makes it so much fun!). Soils vary widely which makes it difficult to say "Yes, you can safely use Equilibrium" or "No, you have too much sulfate reduction occurring, Equilibrium's not a good idea". I guess what I'm saying is that for individuals with 'El Natural' aquariums and very soft water, the recommendation for Equilibrium would need to be made on a case-by-case basis, whereas, the recommendation for a mixture of CaCl2 and MgSO4, could be safely made to that audience as a whole.

I also don't know how much sulfate would be too much. There are numerous substances in nature that we ingest in small quantities every day without causing us difficulties; the same substances taken in larger quantities would be fatal. I wonder if there is enough in Equilibrium to cause a problem.

I too don't know how much sulfate would be too much, but Diana writes in her book that H2S "inhibits root growth or function at a very low concentration..." I also don't know the redox gradient of my substrate although I do know that it must be low enough in some areas to foster some sulfate reduction. I do know that there are large areas of my substrate not occupied by root growth. So I would probably want to err on the side of safety and avoid introducing more sulfates which could be potentially reduced to H2S.

Dave

[aquabillpers]

I enjoy a glass of wine. I brush my teeth with toothpaste that contains flouride. I use sodium chloride on my food. I enjoy an occasional cigar. I know that these things, if done to excess, can lead to health problems.

But I do not worry about that, because I have learned that the chances of anything bad happening from those actions are so remote as to be insignificant.

We do the same thing with out planted aquariums. Some add a little sodium chloride. Others use an antibiotic to kill BGA. Some use high or low temperatures to achieve specific goals. We do those things because they are helpful and we have no evidence that they are harmful if used in moderation.

To me, the same holds true of using Equilibrium to establish calcium and magnesium levels in soft water. It works, it hasn't caused me any problems, and I have not heard of it causing anyone else any.

While sulfur and hydrogen can combine to produce a dangerous and unpleasant gas, I don't know if the small amounts added by Equilibrium are at all significant to that process. I am an agnostic as far as that is concerned.

I have asked Seachem for their opinion. I also invited them to post to this thread if it suited them. So we'll see what happens.

Uh, what are those bubbles coming from that substrate over there? Hmmmm.

Bill