t2000kw

This is a copy of my post to the GAB this morning.
************************************************** ********

Background: This tank is a natural planted 55 gallon tank, no filtration, an air stone as of this morning, more parameters below. Four angelfish, two pearls, two blacks (a mated pair).

The problem was that the two larger angelfish were a mated pair, and they fight after laying eggs. The large one becomes the "protector" of the eggs. The large one had some erosion (and maybe some fungus) around the bottom lip of the mouth, the smaller one some scales knocked off (perhaps, or shifted) and a cloudiness in the bottom half of its right eye.

Anyway, two mornings ago I treated my angelfish tank with melafix AND pimafix, at the suggestion of another hobbyist. Supposedly these are made to be used together. Perhaps this is not the case. I opted for this instead of Clout because these are "natural" remedies and not antibiotics.

Before using these remedies, I did a 40% water change, which would have dropped the pH a bit but never was a problem before with only that much of a change. I did not test for pH based on past experience.

I added the two remedies Tuesday morning. Then, per directions, on Wednesday morning about the same time.

This morning, one dead, one pretty distressed, one showing mild signs of distress, one (the largest one) appeared normal. I immediately transferred the surviving pearl to another tank around the same temperature, also a natural planted tank but smaller, 20g long tank.

I immediately did another larger water change, maybe 60% this time, this morning. Again, I didn't do a "before" check for pH but the "after" check shows 8.2. Our tanks usually gravitate towards 7.2, so that was what it was probably at before I did the first water change on Tuesday morning. So it took 2 changes (one was done two days ago and had 48 hours to "settle in") to get it to 8.2. After the second water change in the original tank, I moved the surviving pearl angelfish that I had moved to another tank back to the problem tank.

The pair of blacks that were the reason for the treatment are not distressed, but still roughed up looking as before, maybe the larger one's mouth marginally better, the smaller one showed signs of distress earlier but looks OK now. The other one is hovering around the bottom with labored breathing and fins clamped a little. An air stone was added.

Other parameters--taken after the change this morning--ammonia-nitrite-nitrate all are zero.

Typical tap water GH is 17, KH around 3 (no buffering capacity), though I didn't test it this morning, typical tap water pH before it goes into any tank is around 9. At least that's what the water company aims for. It's off the chart in my tests, highest I can test for is 8.8 and it looks like it is darker/more purple than that. All are liquid drop tests.

The older similar 55 gallon tanks, as a comparison, if this is helpful: All 3 (including the problem tank) are NPT 55g tanks. The older ones read around pH of 7.2.

What went wrong, what should I do, etc?

I discontinued the treatment for now.

Sorry if this is a bit disjointed but I'm suffering from a bad headache and it didn't help to hit the ground running this morning to take care of all of this.

Don

eklikewhoa

When using melafix/primafix you need really good oxygen in the tank wether you add an airstone or increase surface agitation. Also it could be something in the water if you are using tap for the water change.

It could also be that the water change cause a the stress from the high pH as well or it could have caused a problem with your beneficial bacteria.

t2000kw

I think that the pear angel is doing better. Still not right, but not at the top gasping for air. Still labored "breathing" though. somewhat clamped fins, too. But a far cry from near dead this morning. Still, I hope for some improvement today.

There was a post on the Angelfish board that someone had a problem with one of the two medicines and some of their angels, but not all types that they had. Apparently, some are hardier than others.

Velvetdragon

Some people find Melafix (particularly at the recommended, non-diluted dose) causes problems for their fish. It is a antiseptic (rather than antibiotic) made from tea tree oil. Some hobbyists have found it burns their fish or coats the gills and causes their fish breathing problems. Some species are more susceptible to this than others. PimaFix is made to be used together with Melafix, but I don't know much about it. Then again, many people swear by it. It has been used successfully by fish keepers to prevent infections after minor injuries.

I don't know if that caused the problems with your fish, but if the MelaFix caused gill problems, it may have made them more susceptible to water quality issues as well.

aquabillpers

Some folks believe that medications should be used only as a last resort, and then dosed to the afflicted fish only, in a separate tank.

I've had angelfish that were reasonably they had a spawn, and then the weaker one had to be removed before it was damaged by the stronger one.

Bill