bartoli

But why put a fish through the suffering?

TAB

what makes you think they are suffering?

For the most part, most of the fish we see in the hobby are raised, not wild cuaght, 99% of those have never been in anything other then tap water. Drastic PH changes are what is cruel.

bartoli

Acidosis and alkalosis destroy tissues as well as irritate gills and skin.

As to the idea that the actual level of stable pH does not matter much to raised fish, is there any scientific study with physiological evidence?

TAB

I'm sure there is some where, fact is thousands of generations of fish have been raised that way. I would go as far to say its cruel to subject these fish to conditions of thier home waters. Thats not what they are use too. Having worked in the industry( on both the aqua culture and retail side of things) Just about every thing is raised in tap water. On average, its just treated for chlorine, Carbon filters are also common. Anything else is the exception, not the rule. Now some parts of the country have really nasty water, but generally speaking, you don't see large scale aquaculture companys in those areas.


For 90% of the fish we see in the hobby, it just does not matter.

bartoli

Since you are so sure, please tell us one such scientific study. Many breeders would love to see that for it would be a great marketing tool helping them to sell their livestock to a much broader market. A lot of money to be made.

But the fact is... we have a wealth of scientific knowledge on how improper pH level damages fish. Even though many people (including I myself) wish that raised fish would be the exception, there is no scientific evidence to support that wish.

To be compassionate to fishes, I stay away from those that I cannot provide the appropriate pH.

TAB

So I guess, the 10s of million of fish that are bread, raised and thrive in improper PH in this country is just luck?

lets just take guppies as a example, strike that, lets take Poecilia reticulata. You can in the matter of a month, take them from a PH of 6.0 in very soft fresh water and water temps in the low 60s to a ph of 8.4, sg of salt water of 1.025 and temp of 84, Yet they still will reproduce and have no noticable loss of life span. I've done it, I know several other people that have done it.


I know angel breaders not Far from my house that ship thousands of fish a month world wide, and do it all in 7.5 ph water. BTW they also do killies and several other new world cichlid, all of which are recomended in PH lower then 7. Not only do they do it, that promote it on thier website...They are not the only one. I know more then a few discus breaders that only mess with pH when it comes to breading.

Just becuase you don't like the idea or agree with it, does not mean that it is done world wide in the tropical fish industry.

I tell you what, go around to all your local fish stores, ask them what they do to thier water before they do water changes.

bartoli

On the one hand, we have scientific knowledge saying that water pH above or below that of the native fish environment damages fishes.

On the other hand, we have breeders claiming that their fishes are not sensitive to water pH as long as it is stable.

It is also widely acknowledged that many breeders use medication to improve the survival rate of their livestock. Could it be that those medication improve survival rate by suppressing or damping down the physiological response to improper water pH?

As long as fishes are continually being medicated, I guess they can live well with tap water pH. In that case, breeders should attach medication along with fish delivery, not to mention the ethics of continually medicating fish.

TAB

There are two kinds of knowlegde, learned and earned.


My EXP has always been the earned kind is always better.

Breeders do all kinds of strange things, Every thing from feeding apples to using voodoo dolls.

Most breeders feed live foods atleast daily, many its all they feed. It really has a drastic effect on the health of fish. I know from exp that fry from the same hatch if split into 2 groups, one getting all live and the other manufactorerd, the ones getting live will be market sized in a 1/3 less time then those feed prepared foods.

Many fish are more sensitive hardness, then they are PH. most NW cichlids fall into this catagory.

Forgotten Path

I've never seen fish medication that would do anything for "blockages of the kidney tubulii by calcium salts"...

I've also never heard of a LFS that medicates their fish when not needed. It seems that constant medication would stress the fish more than a tap water pH. Also, let's not forget that thousands of generations of fish provides plenty of time for evolutionary changes... those fish more able to cope with wider pH ranges have a higher chance of surviving, and therefore reproducing. Even if the ones with low tolerance for wide pH ranges didn't die, overall health of the fish would be lower, which would affect its ability to breed. It makes sense to assume that some evolutionary changes would take place that would allow aquarium fish to tolerate much higher pH ranges.

How about this: Obtain a wild cought cardinal tetra. Go to the LFS and purchase a bred one. Drip acclimate them both to a pH of 7.6. I'm willing to bet the one from the LFS would live a longer, healthier life...

TAB

most LFS do parasite control. ( atleast the ones I've been to, that I would buy fish from) That generally means copper or UV.