artgecko

Hello folks,

I'm new to this forum, although I've been keeping both fish and plants for quite some time and I had a couple of questions regarding my 46gl tank that I've just recently replanted. I haven't seen a forum sub-section quite like this one on any other forum, so I have been itching to ask my questions to a more "naturally" minded crowd. Had I known about the el natural method before I set my tank up, I would probably have gone that route, at this point, however, I've already put in my substrate and some plants, so I'm going for a middle-of-the road tank that isn't super high-tech, nor completely natural. Chiefly, I'm interested in doing anything possible to avoid having to put pressurized CO2 on my tank.

I'll tell you about my tank specs first, then ask my questions.
46gl bowfront
~ 400 gph filtration (2 HOB filters)
temp 76f
ph 7
cycled tank
lighting- 96watt power compact fixture (6500k bulb) in a room with large windows so it gets indirect sunlight most of the day.
substrate- florite black "sand" ~2" deep

inhabitants: 25 harlequin rasboras, 10 brochis splendens, 1BN pleco, 1 Clown pleco, 1 betta, MTS, 1 p. brigg snail

plants: at present- hornwort, wisteria, lots of anubias on driftwood, and java fern. Will be getting some red temple, ludwigia repens, dwarf water clover, and bronze and red wendtii crypts in sometime this week.

fertilizers & such: been using the flourish line of products (and have used them in the past) flourish, flourish iron, and flourish excel - instead of CO2. I will also be adding root tablets by API to augment the nutrients already in the flourite sand.

My questions (please feel free to give me any input or advice you think would be beneficial):
1. Do I have any chance of doing a semi-natural setup given my choice of substrate and light that is a tiny bit over 2wpg?
2. If the answer to #1 is yes, then how?
3. Would increasing the amount of either floating plants or fish help this setup work without CO2 (and without a crazy algae bloom)? I'd also love to kick the flourish excel if possible, but I know that might not work.

Thank you for your help and advice!
Artgecko

dwalstad

With all the fertilizers, good lighting, large # of plant species, Malaysian Trumpet Snails (to aerate the sand substrate), I don't see why your tank won't do well. Your sand apparently contains some nutrients to begin with and then you're fertilizing it with the root tabs. You're also adding Excel, which I guess produces CO2?

Floating plants are always good. They should do well in this tank with the good lighting and all the added fertilizers, especially chelated iron to the water.

It sound like you know what you're doing. I would just go with your plans. The results are what counts.

Good luck!

Forgotten Path

Wow.
I have a 46 gal bow front. That I am considering planting. I was going to use a 96 watt PC. And Seachem Flourish products. And special plant substrate (Eco-Complete). And wanted to avoid using CO2. That's kinda freaky...

Anyway, El Natural may be changing my mind on that one...

Given your setup, I don't think there is much of a chance of going "semi-natural" (without breaking down the tank). One of the main components of El Natural (as I understand it) is using soil. Soil has more diverse nutrients (I think Flourite, Eco-Complete, etc. are mostly iron), and the decomposing matter in it provides the plants with CO2. You also have to much filtration for an El Natural, so your HOB filters would have to be "wasted", although you could use one to move water around and for mechanical filtration only. You could always break down the tank, put in soil, replant, and layer over with your Flourite Black Sand. I think the 2 wpg you're getting is enough for El Natural, especially with the sunlight.

Adding floating or emergent plants would help you maintain the tank without CO2... They have the "aerial advantage" of being able to pull CO2 directly from the atmosphere. That allow them to have fast growth and out compete algae while your submersed plants are free to grow more slowly without getting covered in algae.

Have you read (or heard of) Diana Waltstad's book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium: A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise for the Home Aquarist?

[Edit - Ms. Walstad beat me to it!]
It does sound like your tank is doing great, but you want to avoid all the fertilizing and what not, right? If it's not that important to you to avoid doing all that stuff, sticking with your tank as it is would be a lot easier. CO2 systems you can find for around $80 for a simple setup.

artgecko

Thanks for your replies!
dwalstad- yes, the excel is a carbon source... The only downside is that some plants "melt" with excel...vals and egeria densia..among others, as well as the expense of it. Other than that it has worked well for me in the past.

forgottenpath- No, I haven't read her book yet...just found out about it last night (but it's now on my list of books to pick up so hopefully I'll be reading it soon). Also, I thought about doing eco-complete for my 46gl but opted for the sand due to keeping the brochis...apparently eco-complete, like regular flourite, can be sharp and hard on the catfish' barbels. I have also used onyx sand before, but it doesn't have nearly the nutrient content of the flourite sand.

Although this is a somewhat unrelated question, do you think that I'd be able to setup an "el natural" style tank using sand as the top layer instead of gravel? I will be setting up a 10 or 20gl shrimp / snail planted tank soon and am very interested in trying the natural approach since shrimp are so sensitive to ferts and addatives.

Thanks!
Art

Forgotten Path

I don't see why you couldn't, unless there is a problem with limited oxygen in the soil layer... But plants pump oxygen into the soil with their roots, so I don't know if it would be a problem... It would look nice.

Didn't know Excel would melt some plants, thats good to know in case I ever decide to use it.

If you set up your shrimp/snail plant El Narutal, DON'T USE SCOTT'S TOPSOIL. Apparently it's bad for tanks.

artgecko

Thanks,

I'll avoid the scott's...and go organic Hmm..wonder if MTS rooting through the soil / sand would disturb the soil too much. MTS are great, but maybe not for all tanks.

Art

Forgotten Path

I've never kept MTS. How deep do they typically "root" ? Maybe you could compensate with a little thicker top layer of gravel/sand.

totziens

artgecko, glad to see that you're heading for el natural too. I believe you're the same artgecko I met in another forum

Some people make use of Seachem Excel as substitute to CO2 injection. I believe choosing the right types of plants is very important to make el natural planted tank a success, besides lighting and substrate. Example: you don't choose light demanding plants when you have insufficient lighting. Your current list of plants seem to be ok for me. I am unfamiliar with red temple, ludwigia repens & dwarf water clover that you're planning to get but I am pretty sure that Cryptocoryne Wendtii will do well. Even if the crypt melts till it's bald, you should retain the root planted because usually it will grow back.

Kestrel

I can testify to the crypts coming back after they've lost all their leaves, like Totziens said. I had some in my tank that had no leaves for months. Then I pulled them out and planted them in small containers with soil, gravel, and an inch or two of water and put them under some lights. Now, just a couple of weeks later, they have lots of small leaves shooting up, and I can see a day-to-day difference in growth!

Sorry I can't offer any more advice, I'm also new to this. Good luck with your aquarium!

dianainOH

If you are interested in adding some dirt to your substrate, I ran across a post (not sure if it was this forum or not) where someone was making mud ice cubes then shoving them under their gravel. I imagine you would have to be careful not to hurt your plant's roots with the temp change. Just a thought.