brenmuk

My java fern seems to struggle/just hang on while other plants thrive. I get the impression that java fern does not always compete that well with other more vigorous plants. For example since I stripped out most of my vallis (which grew like a beast) all sorts of other plants have started to thrive such as sword plants and rotala rotundifolia (and to a small extent java fern) while others seemed to decline such as ludwigia.

You also mention that leaves are taken over by green spot which could indicate a nutrient deficiency.

dwalstad

If her ferns are getting natural light (from Malaysian tropics), I'll bet the daylength for her plants is at least 12 hr/day.

I would forgot about nutrient deficiencies. By adding more fertilizers (especially iron), you're more likely to kill them with metal toxicity than help them.

I'd also rule out temperature. Kasselmann's book shows that the temperature optimum for Java fern is 20-28C with a maximum of 30C (86F). They can take the heat!

Tanan

But still my ferns get a good 12 hour light and some direct sunlight too,but still they havent grown a bit,just got covered in BGA and getting balder every day.
I too think that heat isnt the problem,even cobomba and anachris can tolerate my exceedingly high 35 C temp.
And I dont fertilize or anything and lighting is just a 25 PC daylight bulb.

totziens

Zapins, I don't have any basement or any place cooler as I am living in an apartment.

Melauriga, of course, the ferns are not planted in the substrate. They are all tied to driftwoods.

Brenmuk, yes, I agree with you about nutrient deficiency leading to green spot algae. I am currently dosing Seachem Phosphorus to fight against it based on suggestion from friends.

Diana, yes, I suppose my friend's ferns are getting about 12 hours of light. I can confirm with her. Starting today, I have increased the lighting to 12 hours per day in my tank. The fertilisers used are Seachem Nitrogen, Seachem Flourish, Seachem Phosphorus, Seachem Potassium and ocassionally Seachem Excel. No iron is used currently but in the old tank (before it was broken and replaced last Saturday) had some ADA iron added in the substrate. The iron was added mainly for the Crypts (it didn't help much anyway).

In my NPT, I have some Philippines Ferns and Narrow Leaf Ferns. They look stunted as no new leaf has ever been produced. Eventually, they will consist of rhizomes only (just like my medium tech tank). Instead of green spot algae, they're attacked by BBA. No fertiliser, no CO2, no fan/chiller & no filter in this tank at all. Blyxa japonica is growing extremely well in this tank (BBA has never attacked them)- even my medium tech tanks cannot beat this tank in terms of keeping Blyxa healthy. I have not increased the lighting to 12 hours because beard algae is attacking plants such as Bacopa, Rotala, etc.

brenmuk

The best tank I've seen java fern grow in was in a neglected tank in my old work - it grew in the substrate and on ornaments -everywhere in fact it was the only plant in the tank. The tank only recieved a few hours of artificial light from an old tube while the rest of the time the light came from the lights from the office (not ideal texbook conditions but the java fern loved it).

Lets face it if the conditions are right for other plants to thrive like Blyxa japonica then you must be providing the basics for good plant growth. If some are thriving but not java fern then it may be at a disadvantage in terms of nutrient competition/allelopathy - so it might be the combination of plants that you have. Java fern if attached to rocks and wood does not feed from the substrate so that is one potential disadvantage it has compared to other rooted plants.

If I were you and I might be tempted to remove the Blyxa japonica from the NPT (as an experiment) and see if java fern takes off. What you might find is that the next most dominant plant starts to thrive and take over but the java fern might pick up a bit. You could keep removing the next most dominant plant till you end up with the combination where java fern thrives.

In my NPT I have gone about things in a slightly different way I have chucked loads of plants into my tank and kept the plants that seem to grow well together.

melauriga

[quote=totziens;480574]
Melauriga, of course, the ferns are not planted in the substrate. They are all tied to driftwoods.

Sorry, I did not mean to insult your intelligence. But I had to ask, because you never know...

Philosophos

I think after a bit of pondering the issue, there's something very fundamentally wrong here. Java fern takes skill and effort to kill, or one unobserved variable VERY out of place.

A nutrient has to be very deficient or toxic here. Something very specific must be very wrong. mere CO2 issues wouldn't do it; these are tough plants. Nutrients being a little ways out of line wouldn't do it either, these plants live in tap with inert substrate, fish food, and general neglect. I can't see it being broad, combined toxicity; there are other plants in this tank alive and well. If it's something quirky and specific, removing variables and simplifying the system will help.

Iron toxicity from fertilizing more than every six months? How was it Hoagland kept his plants alive with .5ppm Fe then? The symptoms certainly don't show toxicity or deficiency. This plant won't die at twice that rate.

Not enough or too little light? I've seen java fern hold up between .75wpg and 4.0wpg+ under many kinds of light, with synth periods between 12 and 6 hours with or without synth breaks. I'm sure many others can attest to this. Award winning tanks are grown anywhere between 8 and 12 hour photo periods with and without synth breaks all the time.

What we've got here is a variable stew (yes variable, not veritable). How about trying to remove as many unnecessary variables as possible? Those root tabs can go. Java fern can grow strapped to the side of a log, and you've got aquasoil in there now. There's a pile of fert brands running around, perhaps try consolidating and refining the method; the toxicity may lay there.

You could also try calculating the ppm's for everything you're dosing, and measure the degradation rate of the root tabs. You may be able to rationally figure out where the most likely problem is, if that's the sort of approach you like.

How frequent are your water changes? May I suggest trying a mass water change as a re-set to what ever toxic may be floating around?

Check your fish food. Compare it to high end brands. Anything seem out of place?

I think a stable, tested method to start from will help here. After you've got it established, then try playing with everything else. It's much easier to start stable than to chase variables around.

Pictures would also be nice. What you tell us you see might not be the same as what we observe of your tank through a few photos.

-Philosophos

Supercoley1

My initial thoughts (and of course can only be guesses on someone else's tank) are:

144W over 50USG = 3WPG - Quite a lot of light.

You do a noon siesta which isn't to hurt algae. It is normally done to replenish CO2 in poorly supplied tanks where the CO2 runs out. thus the hour break gives the CO2 time to build for the second stint. The plants growing well then fights the algae. This method is usually only used on DIY yeast setups as they are notoriously hard to maintain consistent levels.

You only started dosing Phosphorus a week ago.

So my conclusions. For the amount of light oyu have your CO2 is struggling and not enough nutrient (especially phosphorus) is being added. The Seachem dosing schedule won't be enough for a heavily planted high light CO2 enriched setup.

I don't think its the temperature.

Are the ferns the only ones that have problems? Are there any other algae problems within the tank BBA?

With Ferns I tend to be aggressive. very aggressive. If a leaf shows signs of deterioration it comes out. even if the rhizome is then laid bare. They tend to come back much much stronger and thicker too.

AC

totziens

Yes, my NPT is hit by BBA. As for the medium tech tank sometimes it gets hit by BBA too but I can easily get rid of them using Seachem Excel.

I have purposely hide the ferns that lost all the leaves with other plants. So it's impossible for me to capture any photos. Now I am trying to keep those ferns sheltered by other plants because some friends told me to avoid exposing them to direct light. I am not sure how true is this theory as well.

Here are the photos of my medium tech tank.

Overall view of the tank:


Java Fern with green spot algae:


Narrow leaf fern with green spot algae:


Brown narrow leaf fern:

totziens

Here's my NPT.

Overall view of the tank:


Pathetic looking narrow leaf fern and Philippines fern at the background: