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Old 12-28-2005, 07:21 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Also...

Raising nitrate by 10 ppm using KNO3 only raises potassium by 6 ppm.

Raising nitrate by 10 ppm using Ca(NO3)2*4H2O (Calcium Nitrate Tetrahydrate) will raise calcium by 3.23 ppm. (7.15 ppm calcium = 1 dGH)

According to the Seachem MSDS, Flourish Nitrogen contains guanidine as the complexed ammonium source.

Last edited by Salt; 12-28-2005 at 07:24 AM..
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Old 01-04-2006, 09:30 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Sorry to bring this back, but I just had a discussion with Seachem Tech Support and he claims that nitrogen in water of a pH 7 or below will be converted into the ammonium form, while above 7 it will be converted into ammonia. Do you think this is logical?
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Old 01-04-2006, 01:51 PM   #23 (permalink)
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http://bridge.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w...monia/nh3.html

A nice simplified graph (at 25C only) is shown at:

http://compost.css.cornell.edu/odors/ammonia.html

And the old warhorse, but still valid:

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plant.../msg00139.html

HTH
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Old 01-04-2006, 06:32 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I saw several of those charts when I was searching about this reciently. Honestly I don't think they have any merit in this situation because I don;t think the plant and algae care whether it is NH3+ or NH4+. Plants/algae can easily get the N from eithe rof those with out expending more energy than it is worth. That is why algae blooms canbe triggered by NH3/4. They have evolved to recognize situations of higer than normal levels in their environment and increase their growth rate accordingly.

I think, and this is just speculation, but looking at the chemical formula for the chemicals Salt posted as being in Seachem stuff, they are not NH3/NH4 but rather 2 NH2 molecules bound to C and or O molecules. I have reached the limit of my chemisrty here again but possibly those would be more stable. The algae might not be able to strip down those molecules to get at the individual elements while the higher plants should be able to break down the bonds pretty easily. Same as Excel works as a carbon source. The algae have no real use for the chemicels in Excel but the plants can easily break it down to get at the carbon.

Course, as usual, ther I go hypothesizing without any proof....
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Old 01-04-2006, 08:15 PM   #25 (permalink)
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The post I did on the NH3/NH4+ equilibrium was basically to refute Raul-7's report on the Seachem tech support contention that below neutral is ammonium ion and above neutral is the dissolved gas - which is such a terrible misunderstanding and distortion of the equilibrium that it is pathetic. I would hope that the folks here are aware of the massive difference between such distorted statements and reality. If not. they can review the non-commercial sites ref'd and see for themselves.
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Old 01-05-2006, 12:52 AM   #26 (permalink)
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They're at an equilibrium at a pH of 9; but NH3 begins to rise after a pH of ~7.5 and NH4 begins to decline at the same ~pH. At a pH of lower than 7.5; most of the ammonia is NH4 (NH3 + H+ --> NH4). But then again, there is still a lethal amount of NH3 at a pH of 6.5. I'm assuming NH3 won't be lethal at a pH of 6 and lower if the temperatrue stays at a constant 77F?
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Old 01-05-2006, 06:18 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Can I just throw my two bits in about the chemistry of this? Nitrogen gas dissolved in a liquid does nothing - it is completely inert. Ammonia (NH3) is toxic to fish, much more than a related compound, ammonium (NH4+). If you add any ammonia to water, a portion of it will turn into ammonium by reacting with water molecules.

NH3 + H2O <---> NH4+ + OH-

This reaction can go either forward or backward. In a basic solution (such as pH 8, there is already plenty of OH- around so the equation tends to go to the left (more ammonia). In an acidic solution (such as pH 6, there is very little OH- around, favoring the reaction going to the right (most ammonia converts to NH4+). The reaction is also dependent on temperature, but not as much.

To be toxic to fish, you need a certain concentration of ammonia in water. One of the above links gives some good ballpark concentrations. You can get ammonia toxicity even at a pH of 5 if you add enough (very rare, but could be done with enough windex, for example). For comparison, a very small amount of added ammonia would produce the same toxic concentration at a higher pH.

BTW, none of this has anything to do with potassium bicarbonate, which is the title of this thread.

Plants love NH4+, using it as their preferred source of nitrogen when it's available. As soon as molecules of NH4+ are removed by the plants, the above equation shifts a bit (to the right), and more NH3 is converted to NH4+. In a sense, it 'looks' like the plants can use either NH3 or NH4+ since they both exist in equilibrium in any solution.

Plants are also perfectly capable of using NO3- as a nitrogen source and it's much better tolerated by the fish (as we all know from the nitrogen cycle in non-planted aquariums.) Per some research done by Tom Barr, it seems that NH4+ has a detrimental effect when it comes to algae (exactly why has not been explained to me). In a healthy planted tank, the ammonia made by the fish should disappear quite quickly into the plants. Measurable concentrations of ammonia should be zero. Reasonable additions of NO3- don't seem to cause the same algae blooms, but still make Nitrogen available to the higher plants.

One of the readily available commercial fertilizers is ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3). Lots of nitrogen to go around..... It should be easy enough to find if someone wants to experiment with it. For that matter, pure ammonia isn't that hard to find either. Personally, I'll stick with my KNO3.
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Old 05-30-2006, 08:00 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Food grade Potassium Bicarbonate can be found relatively cheaply here: http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,10297.htm
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Old 05-31-2006, 08:05 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Cool! Thanks for the link!

I think it sometimes goes by the name "Salt of Tartar." I have been using it ever since January with no problems.
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:53 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I use NH4NO3. I works quite well but i think i have to increase the daily dose. I add 0.2 ppm and 0.68 ppm NO3 daily from NH4NO3. The NO3:NH4 ratio is 3.4.
There aren't any algae issues. The whole story about NH4 causing algae is an exagerration. Some folks add 1 ppm NH4 daily without any problems with algae. My NO3 reading is still close to zero so that's why i'm thinking of increasing the daily dose of NH4NO3. However it is not a good thing to dose only NH4 as it's consumed by plants in a matter of a few hours so slower growing plants may not "notice" NH4 as a source of N and they will be N starved. One needs to dose NO3 together with NO3.
A commercial N fertilizer "Eudrakon" by German company "Drak" is a composition of KNO3, urea and NH4NO3.

As regards to K2CO3 - don't use it ! It's a strong base (pH in water solution is about 12) and it has very negative effect on plants ! I used it for a week or so and it caused severe stunting ! Many people confuse K2CO3 with KHCO3. KHCO3 is very best source of K and it is used in ADA Brighty K - not K2CO3 as some people said ! The reason why K2CO3 cause stunting is not well known. I read that it is cinnected with "K2" ions vs "K" ions but i dont't think it matters because we add K from K2SO4 without problems with so called "K2" ions.
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