[Wet Thumb Forum]-Ready to rip them all out...

[Sprout]

Hello all, I am a newbie in desperate need of some help. I am a little nervous about posting on a board that has so many plant experts on it but here it goes.... sorry it's so long but I wanted to give as much pertinent info as I could.

I have a 55 gallon heavily planted tank that has been up since December 2002. Currently I am fighting a losing battle with almost every kind of algae and don't know what to do at this point. Like I said I am ready to rip all the plants out...

Here's the stats:
55 g with 110 watts of compact fluorescent lighting (GE® 9325° Kelvin 55 watts x2), and 30 watts (Hagen Life-glo 6700K 15 watts x2). Gives me 2.6 watts/gallon. Substrate is three inches of 3 to 4mm gravel over a thin layer of laterite. Water out of the tap is: pH 8.0 to 8.2, kH 10, gH 140ppm. I have three Hagen CO2 kits running...more on this later... Currently, my pH is 7.6, kH 90, gH 140.

Plants:
Elodea, hydrocotyle leucocephala, sunset hygro, java fern, two kinds of valls, dwarf sags, rotalas indica and wallichi, ludwigia arcuata, alternanthera reineckii ''roseafolia'', bacopa, anubias, one echinodorus uruguayensis and one madagascar lace plant. I had to remove water wisteria that started out beautiful... first plant put in... because it was dying and the hydrocotyle leucocephala as well. The elodea will be next.

Fish: 6 Neon rainbows, 8 Silvertip tetras, 1 bristlenose, 3 otos, 6 cories, 3 small angels and 3 SAE's.

Originally, I had just the 30 watts of Life-Glo... plants really did not do well and brown algae became a problem. Then I added the cf's and at first things were good, brown algae disappeared, plants were pearling for the first time, growth was pretty good. Then the algae started up again, this time green hair or green beard, not really sure.... at this point I wasn't dosing anything... I'd been told not to mess around with ferts by an 'expert' and being a complete newbie I was scared to try them. Then I was advised to start dosing KNO3 2-3 x a week because my plants were losing leaves, had limited growth, transparent leaves, browning leaves, etc... this did not help the situation at all. Around this time I discovered this forum and started reading... tons of good info here!!

After I did lots of research on my own I decided that my plants were probably deficient in everything (amm 0, nitrites 0 nitrates 0, iron 0,
phosphates 0... had been since week two of tank) so I purchased pretty much the whole Flourish line, excluding Flourish Nitrogen and Excel. I started dosing every second or third day, 10mL of Flourish Trace, 2mL of Flourish, 5.5mL Flourish Potassium and 25mL of KNO3 solution (1 teaspoon to 300mL distilled water). I did this for about a month, things were good at first, lots of pearling, new growth etc. Then I noticed that plants were starting to go downhill again and green hair/beard algae was really starting to overrun tank. I started dosing every day 10mL of Flourish Trace, 2mL of Flourish, 5.5mL of FlourishPotassium, 3mL of Flourish Phosphorus, 5.5mL Fluorish Iron and 25mL of KNO3 solution.
Since then, plant growth has not really improved but algae growth has exploded. Especially bad is Black String and a bit of BBA and Green Hair. I even have a little bit of Cyano. Last week after I did a 35% water change
( I do about 35% a week) I noticed that plants were pearling afterwords -which hadn't happened in a while. So I didn't dose anything at all, and haven't since then. I removed a lot of black string algae affected plant parts. This seemed to slow down the black stuff a bit but the green started growing with a vengeance again...
Now I'm not sure what to do. My tank is growing algae faster than I can remove affected plant parts. Even the recent addition of the SAE's hasn't made a dent in it... If I keep this up, I won't have any plants left. The cyano is very minor thank God!!

Now back to the CO2 problem. I cannot keep it stabilized... I think this is where most of my problems come from. The 3 CO2 units should be enough but are not functioning well enough to do the job. The plants are not using the nutrients efficiently because CO2 levels are too low and unstable... I think. I am going to be getting a pressurized unit in a month or so but until then... well I just don't know what I can do to prevent the algae from overrunning my tank. The CO2 levels are roughly less than 10ppm according to many kH/pH charts I have seen. My pH fluctuates between 7.2-7.6, kH between 80-95. I have a Hagen master test kit and test regularly for PO4, NO3, pH, kH and iron, tests for PO4, NO3, and iron always show zero no matter how much or how little I've dosed, which is particularly frustrating!

Please give me some advice!! I am totally at my wits end, feel like a failure and I really hate seeing my tank like this.

Sprout... a grateful newbie

[Sprout]

Hello all, I am a newbie in desperate need of some help. I am a little nervous about posting on a board that has so many plant experts on it but here it goes.... sorry it's so long but I wanted to give as much pertinent info as I could.

I have a 55 gallon heavily planted tank that has been up since December 2002. Currently I am fighting a losing battle with almost every kind of algae and don't know what to do at this point. Like I said I am ready to rip all the plants out...

Here's the stats:
55 g with 110 watts of compact fluorescent lighting (GE® 9325° Kelvin 55 watts x2), and 30 watts (Hagen Life-glo 6700K 15 watts x2). Gives me 2.6 watts/gallon. Substrate is three inches of 3 to 4mm gravel over a thin layer of laterite. Water out of the tap is: pH 8.0 to 8.2, kH 10, gH 140ppm. I have three Hagen CO2 kits running...more on this later... Currently, my pH is 7.6, kH 90, gH 140.

Plants:
Elodea, hydrocotyle leucocephala, sunset hygro, java fern, two kinds of valls, dwarf sags, rotalas indica and wallichi, ludwigia arcuata, alternanthera reineckii ''roseafolia'', bacopa, anubias, one echinodorus uruguayensis and one madagascar lace plant. I had to remove water wisteria that started out beautiful... first plant put in... because it was dying and the hydrocotyle leucocephala as well. The elodea will be next.

Fish: 6 Neon rainbows, 8 Silvertip tetras, 1 bristlenose, 3 otos, 6 cories, 3 small angels and 3 SAE's.

Originally, I had just the 30 watts of Life-Glo... plants really did not do well and brown algae became a problem. Then I added the cf's and at first things were good, brown algae disappeared, plants were pearling for the first time, growth was pretty good. Then the algae started up again, this time green hair or green beard, not really sure.... at this point I wasn't dosing anything... I'd been told not to mess around with ferts by an 'expert' and being a complete newbie I was scared to try them. Then I was advised to start dosing KNO3 2-3 x a week because my plants were losing leaves, had limited growth, transparent leaves, browning leaves, etc... this did not help the situation at all. Around this time I discovered this forum and started reading... tons of good info here!!

After I did lots of research on my own I decided that my plants were probably deficient in everything (amm 0, nitrites 0 nitrates 0, iron 0,
phosphates 0... had been since week two of tank) so I purchased pretty much the whole Flourish line, excluding Flourish Nitrogen and Excel. I started dosing every second or third day, 10mL of Flourish Trace, 2mL of Flourish, 5.5mL Flourish Potassium and 25mL of KNO3 solution (1 teaspoon to 300mL distilled water). I did this for about a month, things were good at first, lots of pearling, new growth etc. Then I noticed that plants were starting to go downhill again and green hair/beard algae was really starting to overrun tank. I started dosing every day 10mL of Flourish Trace, 2mL of Flourish, 5.5mL of FlourishPotassium, 3mL of Flourish Phosphorus, 5.5mL Fluorish Iron and 25mL of KNO3 solution.
Since then, plant growth has not really improved but algae growth has exploded. Especially bad is Black String and a bit of BBA and Green Hair. I even have a little bit of Cyano. Last week after I did a 35% water change
( I do about 35% a week) I noticed that plants were pearling afterwords -which hadn't happened in a while. So I didn't dose anything at all, and haven't since then. I removed a lot of black string algae affected plant parts. This seemed to slow down the black stuff a bit but the green started growing with a vengeance again...
Now I'm not sure what to do. My tank is growing algae faster than I can remove affected plant parts. Even the recent addition of the SAE's hasn't made a dent in it... If I keep this up, I won't have any plants left. The cyano is very minor thank God!!

Now back to the CO2 problem. I cannot keep it stabilized... I think this is where most of my problems come from. The 3 CO2 units should be enough but are not functioning well enough to do the job. The plants are not using the nutrients efficiently because CO2 levels are too low and unstable... I think. I am going to be getting a pressurized unit in a month or so but until then... well I just don't know what I can do to prevent the algae from overrunning my tank. The CO2 levels are roughly less than 10ppm according to many kH/pH charts I have seen. My pH fluctuates between 7.2-7.6, kH between 80-95. I have a Hagen master test kit and test regularly for PO4, NO3, pH, kH and iron, tests for PO4, NO3, and iron always show zero no matter how much or how little I've dosed, which is particularly frustrating!

Please give me some advice!! I am totally at my wits end, feel like a failure and I really hate seeing my tank like this.

Sprout... a grateful newbie

[b3dlam]

Sprout,

Don't despair!!! 'Everyone' goes through the algae growing stage at one point or another...


I am assuming the kH you mentioned is in ppm, which translates to about 5 dKH. At this level, you should try to get the pH down to about 7.0 (using only CO2 - NOT pH down powders).

With regards to the Nitrate dosing, you really need to add more. Check out http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/articles.htm for dosing amounts. When you do the nitrate test, if the readings indicate 0ppm, add a minute amount of KNO3 to the test cylinder and see if it will change. This will give you an idea whether the test kit is still working.

I think the lack of nitrate is you main problem at the moment. The CO2 supply is also of concern, but we can look at resolving that a bit later.

Are you aerating the water at all? Any splashing or turbulent water movement in the tank?

hth...

[b3dlam]

Oh...one more thing...

When you do the waterchanges, are you adding more fertilisers to refresh the nutrient supply?

[jpmtotoro]

hey buddy boy, i have a similar tank to you and had a similar problem. 50 gallons, 110watts PC, no pressurized CO2 yet and i'm using the flourish line of stuff with great success. i'm using excel instead of the CO2 stuff you have... you don't "need" to be running CO2 in the tank... and if you can't keep the levels stable, perhaps it's best to just pull the plug on them? all i can say is i'm using the flourish excel until i can get a CO2 system and my algae is low (only some of that hard green stuff on the glass) the plants are pearling (late in the day mind you, but they are pearling a bit) and growth is good. i don't even change my water weekly. bi-weekly usually... nuts, that means this weekend... anyway back to your issue... i'm using the "recommended" dosage for almost their entire line. flourish, trace, phosphorous, nitrogen, potassium, iron, and excel. i think that's everything except equillibreum! i only have 4 small SAEs and 6 ottos for cleaning the algae right now. what i did was give some of the larger plants a bleach bath. after sticking the stuff back in the tank, i did water changes (about 1/3 maybe) for 2 or 3 days straight. the algae was slowly going away (slowly) so i decided to get onto a routine. i dosed the recommended dosage on wednesdays and saturdays like clockwork. i didn't see results for a week or two, but the plants have adapted, they are growing again, and i'm not too worried about the future as much. i am now going to start dosing MWF now and will see how that goes for a few weeks. the thing you need to keep in mind is that you will not see a change in a few days. you'll maybe see progress in a week or so. have patience. the flourish products worked fine for me so i'm sure they will be ok for you. don't "experiment" right now, find something and stick to it. i started dosing low and stuck to it. i didn't even bother checking nutrients all that often because nothing is in balance anyway. the plants aren't growing. get on a schedule with your nutrients and just give it time. i would do a water change once a week and just hope for the best. also remember that if you dose with the flourish nitrogen, then the nitrogen in your water is actually equal to twice a nitrate test, so if you read 5 it's more like 10, so don't worry if it's on the low side. anyway, if i was in your shoes (these are still only suggestions, may not work, we're experimenting together)

1. get those CO2 things off and dose with some excel if you think you need to add something until you can get a CO2 system
2. get a schedule of some sort. dose the ferts you need and dose them regularly. i wouldn't dose "optimum" either because your plants aren't growing. that's why i stuck with "beginner" levels until i had steady growth again. fluctuations in the tank are BAD. it's probably better to just barely have enough nutrients than to have no nutrients one day and too much the next day.
3. have patience!

my PH is 7.6ish and my KH is 5 or 6. no worries, it'll be good for CO2 addition, but no negative situations right now and yes, making the surface stop mixing is good. instead of aiming for optimal growth, aim for steady and slow since you don't have good CO2 yet. it's working for me ok, should be ok for you too. just remember to go slow. get the big stuff out of the way and get stable, then work from there. also i chopped back a ton of my leaves that were covered with algae... in my case it turned out to be a dumb move because when the algae died off and was eaten, most of the leaves were still pretty healthy. instead, i ended up chopping my plants back like crazy. kinda dumb anyway, how's this for an equally long post?

JP

PS you could also perhaps just have the 55 watt lights going (if you have some good reflectors you'll probably be ok), it would slow down the photosynthetic rate which would be good if you have no CO2 being added. these suggestions probably won't get your tank looking great again, but it's a place to start. then build up slowly. there's no point doubling the rate at which you throw ferts in, if your plants have all the fers they need, the algae is gonna take the rest if you just double for the heck of it. get stable and stop changing things and wait for a week before you expect results.

PPS for your tests... are you letting them sit out for a bit? i'm using the AP kits, and the nitrates take a few minutes to register. shows up extremely low at first, then slowly turns the right color.

[This message was edited by jpmtotoro on Thu March 20 2003 at 10:53 PM.]

[Sprout]

Thanks for your replies guys, I feel a little better already.

b3dlam... I do have a H.O.T. on the tank. I have it turned down fairly low so it doesn't disturb the surface too much. Not to the lowest setting though as that seems to encourage cyano when I have it on real low. The filter is at one end of the tank and it doesn't even ripple at the other end, where the CO2 diffusers are and incidentally, where the cyano shows up.

I would love to get the pH down to 7.0!! Don't worry about me using those pH adjusters... I'm scared of them!!
And yes, I do re-dose everything after the waterchange... I just didn't last time out of frustration and the fact that the plants seemed happier without 'em. But I'm gonna get back to a regular dosing schedule now.

So I think this is what I'm gonna do... start following the Flourish directions exactly... since it seems I've been overdosing. Next I'm going to start adding Excel. I think I will start dosing the KNO3 everyday as well. Sound good so far?

As to removing the CO2 things totally, eeee I'm kinda leery about doing that! You don't think my plants will go into shock or something if I totally remove 'em? Can I use both? Or is that overkill? What about the fish?

I'm definitely thinking about the bleach bath thing... but I'm worried about effects on the fish. Did you have anything bad happen JP? Did you soak the plants in dechlorinator after and for how long if you did? Did any plants die from this treatment? How do you know how long do do it for?

Yeah, I'm totally not looking for insane growth or anything... I just want the plants to be healthy and the algae to go away. Not too much to ask!!!!If that happens I will be soooo happy!

Sprout

[jpmtotoro]

if you want to dose KNO3 regularly, keep an eye on it. you may be dosing too much or too little, don't add more in if you have nitrates over 10ppm, let the plants (or algae) suck it up. as for the bleach bath, it's supposed to be 19 parts water, one part bleach. in my world that's a whoosh of water and a plop of bleach i took out the large plants (some crypts, anubias, wisteria i think, some plants that were large and healthy, but getting attacked hard) and i held them upside down in the solution by the roots (just soaking the leaves) after that, i chucked the plant into a bucket filled with tap water and a ton of dechlor. someone said it might help, i wasn't gonna argue at this point. so one by one i dipped the plants for about a minute flat, not too much more or less. after doing a dozen or so, i rinsed them off, and stuck them back in the tank, simple as that. the algae turned sorta white-ish and was much easier to rub off. i got lazy and left it, and my 4 little SAEs started going after it. i was sorta scared they would be ingesting bleach, BUT they all lived, AND i had just gotten them mail order the day before, so they weren't long-standing healthy guys to start with, so i'm assuming that the algae they ate wasn't too toxic since absolutely nothing died in my tank. actually the SAEs cleaned off all the algae in 2 days flat, and all i'm left with is the hard green algae that grows on the glass, and i'm not really fighting that right now because i'm lazy, everything else is ok. all plants and fish did fine with the quick bleach bath. people normally do it for 2 minutes i think, but i opted for one since i was a bit scared, but it still had satisfactory results in my opinion so that may be a good place for you to start. as for your CO2... personally i'd take them off, i don't think it's really helping if the CO2 is jumping up and down. most of the guys here don't have ideal growing conditions, just GOOD conditions and consistent stuff in the tank. lighting doesn't change, CO2 levels don't change, ferts don't fluctuate wildly. i think the algae responds faster to the fluctuations than the plants, so i would get them under control. i don't use any CO2, my PH is about 7.5ish, just dosing ferts and excel regularly and i'm happy for now. the only thing is that hard green spot algae, but i think that is farily normal, but i'm still gonna go after it in a little while. i'm still letting my plants recouperate. the dosing directions for the flourish stuff is for non-high-tech tanks. obviously if you are running CO2 and high lights, you're gonna need more, so instead of messing with the ferts amount, i left light at 2wpg PC and excel, no CO2. i think the higher light and higher CO2 you have in your tank, the faster the plants are going to use ferts and you'll need a more delicate balance to keep things in check, whereas slower growing tanks are supposed to react slower to fluctuations, so i have been able to get a handle on stuff again. from here i will add real CO2 in the future, and then probably some more light, but in the mean time i'm fine if my anubias only grow one leaf every week or two, and my amazon swords do one a week. fine by me as long as everything isn't covered in thick algae actually if you have blue green algae... you might have nitrate deficiency, not an excess... keep an eye on the doses and stuff. i'm using the flourish nitrogen since i'm lazy. actually it's supposed to be a bit better, but that may be marketing jargon. it is part nitrates (negatively charged) and some long name compound that contains nitrogen and is positively charged. the thought is that the plants don't need to expend as much energy gathering some neg and some pos molecules for nitrogen... BUT as most people tell you, dosing nitrates works fine for them so even if the nitrogen stuff is better, it's probably not necessary anyway, ya i think you have a good idea of what to do, but until you can get real CO2 in there, i would revert it back to a not-so-high-tech tank and get your plants squared away. believe me on the patience thing, watching it every day didn't do anything but drive me nuts try to provide good conditions and let nature take care of itself. good luck, feel free to post any more questions.

[jpmtotoro]

hey i just thought of something else, you could possibly borrow/buy a... what are they called... diatom filter? or a UV sterilizer. i don't think the UV sterilizer is the best for planted tanks, but it's negative impact is marginal compared with the positive algae-spore killing effect. i haven't tried this, but you could search around the forum for info on it. if you're really getting your butt kicked by algae, this might keep it from spreading so fast. i'm sorry i can't offer any real info on these since i haven't used either method, but it might give you something to look at. once again, good luck!

JP

[Sprout]

Thanks JP, I really appreciate all your help!

Ok then... tomorrow is THE day!! Gonna bleach bath my anubias, java fern, sword and vallisneria. I'd like to do the ludwigia and wallichi but I think they may be too delicate for that kind of treatment... Oh yeah, didja do any red plants? I don't know why I think they would react any different... My alternanthera is coveredin green hair or green beard (not sure which, it's just green and thick) but I'm chicken**** about bleaching it... Maybe 'cuz I like it so much.

Yeah, definitely nitrates are too low... no matter how often I've dosed I get a zero or very close to a zero. and that's with 3 different testers, Jungle Dipstick, AP and Hagen. I've never let the test sit longer than the instructions say to though... doesn't that defeat the purpose of the test?

What you said about CO2 levels jumping all over the place not helping the plants any but encouraging algae growth makes a lot of sense... hmmm.... will prolly end up pulling out the CO2 jobbies then. Wish me luck!!

Sprout

[jpmtotoro]

my crypts are sorta red... i guess i don't think you need to worry too much. the other thing is that the algae bath didn't totally kill off the algae, after 2 days i noticed some new growth, BUT by day 2 my SAEs were going hog wild eating the stuff. your SAEs may be eating the stuff that they should be, but the algae may be growing faster. the bleach bath may stunt the growth of the algae (did in my case at least) so it allowed my little cleaning crew to help clean up. actually i failed to mention that at the same time i got 10 amano shrimp so my crew was those guys, 4 SAEs and 6 otocinclus. i'm not sure what sort of a role the 10 shrimp played. probably marginal. at the time i also had no snails. you could think about getting some malaysian trumpet snails, then when they get out of control get a few loaches and bye-bye snails and don't worry too much, some things are going to work, and some things aren't, the important thing is that you give stuff about a week before you start to see results. after you remove the CO2 things, bleach bath the algae... i'd do a big fat water change and consider it a brand new start to get things right for a week or two, see how that works. do you have a picture of your weed bed? maybe i could see how bad you are compared to mine. mine was pretty nasty, maybe i can offer some other suggestions if i know just how bad you have it. another thing i just thought of... do you have decent water circulation or is it pretty stagnant? circulation may help, BUT it's just a thought, i really have no clue. i got a canister filter during my algae tear down so i think that helped. no more surface agitation, but good circulation. good luck tomorrow!