[Wet Thumb Forum]-A couple of questions concerning a deficiency. - Fertilizing

rayon1984 · 02-14-2005, 05:52 PM

I’m trying to figure out a deficiency in my tank that is affecting my fast growing anachris. I have a few questions I think will help so if anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated.

My questions:

My phosphate level is at 0.1ppm. If I add .2ppm, and then check the next day it is still 0.1ppm. I just read an article that says if plants have been low on phosphate for a while they can suck out what you add in less than one day. Is it possible this is what is happening?

My tap water shows .1ppm phosphate also. According to this site http://www.cityoftulsa.org/resources...ccrpages23.pdf I see no mention of phosphate in my tap water. Is it possible that my test kit is inaccurate and my phosphate level is really 0? I ran an experiment last night. If I take a bucket of water that is .1ppm and add .4 ppm the next day it is about .4ppm.

Is there any evidence of excess iron leading to beard algae?

Could a lack of iron lead to stunted growth, or stems turning yellow at bottom and breaking apart?
Could a lack of phosphate affect new growth (leaves and stems) turning in pale/yellow?

Thanks,
Ryan

Roger Miller · 02-17-2005, 03:04 AM

Nothing really stands out to me. Maybe someone else will have some input.

Make sure your CO2 level stays up or you will see problems. Your conclusion that phosphorus is low sounds good and certainly dosing phosphorus is unlikely to hurt anything. You might improve color by increasing your dose of Flourish.

Roger Miller

rayon1984 · 02-16-2005, 05:07 AM

Roger:
20 Gallon High
55w 9235k Power Compact Lighting & 15 watt NO fluorescent
Hagen Co2 system
Rena Filstar xP1 canister filter
Eco-Complete substrate

Ph 7.0
Gh 12 degrees
Kh 9 degrees
Nitrate 5ppm and only falls with a water change
Po2 .1ppm
Temp 78

Planted late December, between Dec 25, 2004 and Jan 1, 2005

My orginal complaints:

Anachris
- side shoots have small weak stems.
- Looks like the upper leaves are becoming transparent/yellow from the edges inward
Moneywort (bacopa monerri)
- One bottom leaf has pinholes in it…doesn’t seem to be getting worse however
- Bottom leaves are turning yellow then black, and rotting off
- Top leaves are curling (cupping I believe is the term)
- All leaves (including new sideshoot leaves) appear to have yellowish leaf veins, and the
leaves kind of look white

* No pearling/air bubbles from any plants – ever…at least none that I ever see. When I first planted there was a lot of o2 from the plants.

You suggested changing my fertilization to 2ml flourish and 10ppm potassium twice a week. After three weeks my moneywort has completely recovered. During those three weeks my anachris only got worse. It used to grow from ½ the tank size to the top of the water in one week. Now I haven’t trimmed it in two weeks and it still has grown less than ½ inch. Many of the stems started growing so the top leaves were only about ¼ the size of the bottom leaves. Two stems browned at the bottom and broke in half, but I think this was bottom cuttings I had been using to grow sideshoots.

I realized that all yellowing of anachris leaves were new growth, so I added more iron last Monday. The next day I saw beard algae, so I figured excess iron and decided to try phosphate instead. I added .1ppm Wednesday and Sunday. In the last week I have seen more growth than in the previous 2.5 weeks combined. The stems that had normal leaf growth doubled their size and are now growing out of the water. The stems with small top leaves did not; however, they did create new sideshoots that have grown to be about 4-5 inches. There is still yellowing of new growth stems/leaves however.

I am definably having improved growth, and the only thing that I have changed is that one time dose of .2ppm iron and the .1ppm x2 phosphate. My co2 level did go down the last week because I ran out of sugar and used my mixture for an extra week, but the drop was like from 20ppm to 15ppm. I did not fix this until Monday night, long after my anachris’s growth improved.

My algae is beard algae I think. It is dark, long (more than an inch) wavy strands. I haven’t tried to remove any yet, so I don’t know how easy it is to remove.

As for tank inhabitants:
6 x Zebra Danio
4 x Cherry Barb
3 x Otto Catfish (algae eaters)

Plants are just moneywort and anachris spaced about 1 inch or so apart 50% of each plant covering my entire tank (no decor or anything)

Thanks for your help,
Ryan

rayon1984 · 02-16-2005, 05:02 PM

This picture is from Feb 11. Notice the yellowing of the stem at the top, and the color of the leaves. Also I was wondering, will the leaves that cupped on my moneywort ever recover?

Thanks,
Ryan

rayon1984 · 02-16-2005, 04:58 PM

Here are some pictures that might help. I can't figure out how to get two in one post so I'll have to do two posts. This picture is from a week ago.

Roger Miller · 02-16-2005, 03:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Is it possible then that that calcium in interfering with my phosphate addition? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, but if your plants are suffering a phosphate shortage caused by high calcium levels then you should be able to overcome the problem by using small and frequent phosphate doses. Making sure the pH stays below 7 is another way to reduce the problem.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I have read that silica can contribute to brown algae (diatoms). Brown algae is the most common form of algae growing in my tank, so would this lend to my hypothesis that I really have less than .1ppm phosphate? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not necessarily. Most everybody has diatoms in their tanks, but not everyone has enough silica to mess with their phosphate tests.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Do you recommend I keep dosing phosphate like this even though it doesn’t affect my test kit till it slowly does increase to about .5ppm, or should I instead keep dosing over and over till my test kit rises to .2ppm and then slowly increase to .5ppm? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, I can't recommend that. If your test kit isn't right then you can't use it to manage phosphate levels in your tank. I gave up on phosphate tests a long time ago and just give my tanks a regular dose.

I am not confident that you have come to the right conclusion. Can you give (or repeat) information on your tank; water parameters, lighting, temperature, plant inhabitants and so on?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I’ve started to get beard algae. I noticed it last week after increasing my iron dosage, but I think it is probably from the fact that ½ of my plants have pretty much stopped growing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>When my plants stop growing and algae shows up it is usually because my CO2 levels dropped. Beard algae (long, dark grey wavy strands growing in beards off the edge of leaves) is easily removed. Brush algae (short, straight, dark filaments in clumps that are firmly attached) is difficult to remove. Which do you have?

Roger Miller

rayon1984 · 02-14-2005, 05:52 PM

I’m trying to figure out a deficiency in my tank that is affecting my fast growing anachris. I have a few questions I think will help so if anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated.

My questions:

My phosphate level is at 0.1ppm. If I add .2ppm, and then check the next day it is still 0.1ppm. I just read an article that says if plants have been low on phosphate for a while they can suck out what you add in less than one day. Is it possible this is what is happening?

My tap water shows .1ppm phosphate also. According to this site http://www.cityoftulsa.org/resources...ccrpages23.pdf I see no mention of phosphate in my tap water. Is it possible that my test kit is inaccurate and my phosphate level is really 0? I ran an experiment last night. If I take a bucket of water that is .1ppm and add .4 ppm the next day it is about .4ppm.

Is there any evidence of excess iron leading to beard algae?

Could a lack of iron lead to stunted growth, or stems turning yellow at bottom and breaking apart?
Could a lack of phosphate affect new growth (leaves and stems) turning in pale/yellow?

Thanks,
Ryan

Roger Miller · 02-15-2005, 03:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I just read an article that says if plants have been low on phosphate for a while they can suck out what you add in less than one day. Is it possible this is what is happening? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Possibly. Also, phosphate can combine with calcium or iron to form insoluble minerals and it can be strongly adsorbed on some surfaces. When phosphate levels drop it isn't automatically due to plant uptake.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>According to this site http://www.cityoftulsa.org/resources...ccrpages23.pdf I see no mention of phosphate in my tap water. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Phosphate is not a regulated constituent in drinking water, so water utilities rarely report its concentration.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Is it possible that my test kit is inaccurate and my phosphate level is really 0? I ran an experiment last night. If I take a bucket of water that is .1ppm and add .4 ppm the next day it is about .4ppm. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes. Phosphate is a difficult test. One problem is that silica (a common consituent) can cause the test to produce a false positive. You can get readings from water with no phosphate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Is there any evidence of excess iron leading to beard algae? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not that I know of.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Could a lack of iron lead to stunted growth, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not typically. I would look to other trace elements for the cause of stunted growth.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>or stems turning yellow at bottom and breaking apart? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No. Iron shortage effects new growth first and usually appears as interveinal chlorosis; the leaves have green veins and the tissue between the veins is yellow or white. The symptoms are not as clear on monocots. For that symptom people sometimes cite low light, shading, warm temperatures, damage and other physical factors rather than nutrient problems, though nutrient causes are probably also possible.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Could a lack of phosphate affect new growth (leaves and stems) turning in pale/yellow? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not usually. Phosphate shortage normally causes slow growth and in more extreme cases dwarfed growth. Poor color on new growth is possibly caused by a shortage of iron and/or several other trace elements.

Roger Miller

rayon1984 · 02-15-2005, 05:56 PM

Roger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Also, phosphate can combine with calcium or iron to form insoluble minerals <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In an earlier post you said that because my GH was 12 degrees that I should have sufficient calcium. Is it possible then that that calcium in interfering with my phosphate addition? I’m assuming these “insoluble minerals” are not beneficial to plants. Should I be concerned about this, and how would I get around it?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Yes. Phosphate is a difficult test. One problem is that silica (a common consituent) can cause the test to produce a false positive. You can get readings from water with no phosphate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have read that silica can contribute to brown algae (diatoms). Brown algae is the most common form of algae growing in my tank, so would this lend to my hypothesis that I really have less than .1ppm phosphate?

I’m coming to the conclusion that my main problem now is phosphate with a possible iron shortage as well. Since I increased my potassium dosing my moneywort has pretty much fully recovered while the anachris has only gotten worse. I’m thinking that I don’t really have .1ppm phosphate, and what phosphate is in the water is being taken by the now healthy moneywort thus starving my anachris. On Thursday and Sunday I added .1ppm phosphate and now some of my anachris has started growing again. Do you recommend I keep dosing phosphate like this even though it doesn’t affect my test kit till it slowly does increase to about .5ppm, or should I instead keep dosing over and over till my test kit rises to .2ppm and then slowly increase to .5ppm?

I’ve started to get beard algae. I noticed it last week after increasing my iron dosage, but I think it is probably from the fact that ½ of my plants have pretty much stopped growing. How should I go about fixing this problem? I’ve read that it can’t be removed from the leaves without damage. I’m assuming that once my plant’s health improves the algae will die back, so should I just leave it alone?

Thank you so much for you help,
Ryan