TWood

Jeff,

I'm sorry, but I think that attitude is just tragic. Especially coming from someone who is the US entre for Amano. Good work has never been accomplished with such a shallow approach to a discipline.

TW

plantbrain

Some folks don't care about that aspect Tom.
Many don't care about the art either or any discussion about it, they just want an decent plant tank with decent growth.
Some folks care about both.

Jeff certainly appreciates the science, but is more focused on scaping, like Amano is.

Hell, both areas in planted tanks need a great deal of work done, noth just the scaping and not just the science.

Myself, I'm more focused on the science but I also focus on the scapes as well. Both foci have limitless potentials for intrigue, depends on your interest.

Art and science are linked in many ways, their interwoveness in a planted tank is spectacular.



Regards,
Tom Barr

TWood

I'd always associated that sentiment with the Amano style. So, when I see 'unscientific energies' and shake 'n bake 'scaping, I guess I'm having trouble adjusting. However, if more of the market responds to that sort of pitch, then I'll accept that I'm out of the mainstream.

Jeff, no malice intended, just a data point of reaction to your marketing.

TW

Raul-7

I've heard many accounts by people on Aqua Quotient, who have used ADA substrates, that it dose crumble faily easily, "My experience with ADA soils is that it is easily broken by rescaping, ie. uprooting and planting. It's soft." (Aeon)

pineapple

Texas and the Swamp have a plethora of ideas and approaches. New York can chime in here.

Having struggled to find a substrate option which I like and which is a little less harsh and limiting than Flourite alone or Flora Base, I find that I have come to a point at which I will either try to create my own by buying Akadama, Oiso sand, charcoal, peat, bacteria and... whatever else comes to mind as the research goes on or buy in another option from overseas when I go to Taiwan or Europe.

I have a good understanding of how a substrate can help to overcome some set up problems and am ready to go ahead with some new aquariums this year. The DIY aspect of substrate has certainly given me a science-fair understanding (along with university geology, chemistry and biology) and I am ready to leave that aspect in the care of someone who can provide what I need. Perhaps the ADA Powersand and Aquasoil will be a step up (I have placed an order to try them out).

Aside from the substrate and the various options of what you add to it , for instance Penac etc, there are many things to learn not only about the science of growing algae-free plants but also the art of rocks and plants. If I leave substrate in the hands of ADA, I can say there are many other things to occupy my time with.

Having ADA products introduces a new option to a somewhat deprived 1st world of planted aquariums in the United States. I am happy we have some new options now.

Andrew Cribb

plantbrain

It's a fine line but if they know you are crotchety, they take no offense
I've been out of the mian stream for many years, so that can be good.

Where I run into conflicts is generally with businesses selling the products, but this can go both ways, SeaChem has benefited greatly, wereas Dupla has taken a serious beating. Some of the product line will take a serious beating, but some will benefit. SeaChem knows KCL can be bought at Home Depot, but they still sell it because there is a market.

ADA is no different selling the moss cotton and the fern ties.
I've been helping at AQ for some time now.
I see no miracles there with ADA stuff but most seem to like it.

George Booth use to argue the long term effects of a substrate, well the short term starts are also worth discussing and a heck of lot easier to test.

I don't have 2 years to devote to find out if the stuff gets junky or not.
Luis did not care for the FB, I did not either. ADA stuff has had some of the same comments and Amano said it doesn't but I'm more likely to believe a customer than the owner. I'll believe my own eyes even more.

I think the ADA stuff is nice in color, size and product line.
No matter what, it's better than Dupla and Dennerle with less mumbo and better scapes IMO.

And it fit lasr for 1-2 years, that's fine with many folks, that scape, they often tear the tank after it grows in and start over.

I think for Andrew and Jeff the ADA product line is good for their goals.
They want to mess with the Art aspect.

Most do I believe. I try to help folks get there no matter what the product line, some wanna know why, I try to address that as well.

I like scaping also but have less time to devote to it for the science portion. Amano's situation is reversed, more on the art less on the Science. We both like similar looking equipment though.

I do not need a Top of the line Benz or a MacClaren, but I like them.

Regards,
Tom Barr

TWood

Ford sells its own vehicles and also owns Jaguar. They bought Jaguar because it was more cost effective than building a luxury brand name from scratch. The marketing for the two products is very different because they are pitching to two very different markets.

ADA/Amano is the Jaguar of planted aquariums. Everybody else is Ford.

Protect the brand name.

TW

plantbrain

I like the MacClaren personally
Most every tank of mine has something I made from scratch, so a custom rod would be my ride. Even the tanks I get made I end up doing something to them.

But you bring up an interesting issue, a cheapy product line and pricy one etc. ADA does not seem to do that approach, why should they? Can they compete with the cheese and production of Chinese or TW Azoo/Via Aqua or Korean Jebo?

Tropica can say the same thing. I like Tropica's plants but people here would not buy many. Claus and I talked about that a long time ago.
But they will buy TMG.............
Singapore kills them on pricing, not quality though. USA folks are cheap as rule. Plant folks especially so after the Dupla years.

So some dry good can work out here, ADA has the best advertizing, some awesome photography of cool aquascapes domr with all their own stuff.

For new person, having everything, rather than saying go to the paint store for this, Home Depot for that, mail order this, buy from so and so, ADA has everthing all laided out.

While the initial price is steep since everything is all laid out, the over akll actual price might be more reasonable than many think if you added up your time tracking all the stuff down and learning etc and getting the stuff to all fit well and look well together.

Many folks are poor DIY'ers.
Some just don't wanna mess with it.

That's why ADA should be available here.

My concern is a thorough understanding of the products and the reasons whyb they work so when folks here come to me and ask, "Tom, why does this work/Does not work and why do I have algae?" I'll have some clue.

Even the best product line cannot avoid many other issues.

In any event, the advice I give works very well with the ADA line of substrates and start ups. AQ folks seem to think so.

Like ADA stuff, some folks might not be willing to pay for my articles/servives. That's fine too
But it's available the world over, complete and utter planted tank domination of the world, a small goal of mine.

I'll be down in LA trying to plant the marine reef folks this weekend. If you have a tank, it's got to have a plant in it!

Regards,
Tom Barr





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jsenske

TW- That was just a flippant comment made in a tone that I've talked to Tom in. It is no way my marketing approach. I will mind my word choice and tone more carefully in the future. I knew after I posted that someone would call me out on it. Just trying to keep a sense of humor about some of this.

Followers of this thread may want to have a look at a recent post by Oliver Knott in the AQUASCAPING forum on the ADG 90cm/ADA TANK subject line. He's been using the ADA substrate for quite some time now and has some interesting observations.

plantbrain

I make lots of controversial comments, but they are about plants. I did not see it as a marketing approach. Jeff and I are cool with eachother on this.
I see his point and jab him a little but I really think there's a decent element to this product line that was absent from say Dupla.

I've installed Dupla systems and done a fair amount of install work over the years. ADA's line will allow this to be done easily for well heeled clients, much better than the past high end product lines............

This is a lot of Jeff's business(set ups and maintenance), so it is a very wise decision business wise to use this line.

To that end, it also means someone Like O Knott will also be able to do these tanks with less grief to some degree as well. He also does maintenance.

The job is hard enough without having to piece all the parts together etc trying to save$$$

Clients want results yesterday.......
Even if it last for 1 year etc, understanding it well will allow you to change direction and be able to respond effectively later when that does occur.

So there is the link I suppose......

Regards,
Tom Barr