Left C

Hi Kekon

I notice that you are using ammonium, urea and nitrate for dosing nitrogen. I know that Seachem's Flourish Nitrogen supplies plants with ammonium and nitrate. It's Guaranteed Analysis is:
Total Nitrogen (N) 1.5%
1.5% Soluble Nitrogen
Soluble Potassium (K2O) 2%
- Derived from: potassium nitrate, urea (iminium salt)

Would Flourish Nitrogen be a better choice for adding nitrogen than Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) is?

Thanks,

Left C

kekon

I think it would, but it's expensive as well. KNO3 is the most popular salt and if not overdosed, it should work well too. (1 ppm NO3 daily is quite enough)

Left C

Thanks, Kekon

I've been dosing one of my tanks somewhat similar to your's by using low nitrate (KNO3) and low phosphate (KH2PO4), but I've been adding a little extra potassium (K2SO4) plus increasing GH using Seachem's Equilibrium, magnesium sulfate heptahydrate (MgSO4∙7H2O), and calcium chloride dihydrate (CaCl2∙2H2O). The GH of my tap water is 40 ppm and the KH is 25 ppm. My Alternanthera reineckii has twisted leaves and this is why I'm trying this regimen out..

I haven't been dosing daily. I dose every few days by using a test kit and dosing to keep the NO3 and the PO4 low.

Kekon, I got a little tangled up on what you are dosing and when. This is what I think that you are dosing. Is this correct?

At water change, you add:
NO3 - 10 ppm
PO4 - 1 ppm
K- 20 ppm
Ca - 32 ppm
Mg - 8 ppm
Fe - 0.3 ppm
Mn - 0.2 ppm

Daily, you add:
NO3 - 0.5 to 1.0 ppm
KH4 - 0.05 to 0.1 ppm
PO4 - 0.2 to 0.25 ppm
K - 1.2 ppm
Fe - 0.05 ppm
Mn - 0.029 ppm

The tank that I want to use your dosing regimen has high light, pressurized CO2 and soft water. I have 500 mL of F. Nitrogen plus about 400 grams of KNO3 and the other dry ferts. This seemed like a good place to use the F. Nitrogen since you are dosing nitrate, urea and ammonium.



I'm using Edward's PPS-Pro with one of my other aquariums. It's working well. It's a lean system somewhat like yours.

kekon

Oh no, i don't add so much NO3 after WC. My daily dosing routine is as follows:

0.5..1 ppm NO3
0.05..0.1 ppm NH4
0.17..0.33 ppm urea
0.2 ppm PO4
1..2 ppm K

after WC:

0.2 ppm PO4
1 ppm NO3
0.1 ppm NH4
0.33 ppm urea
0.3 ppm Fe
0.2 ppm Mn
20 ppm K (per changed water volume)

Alternatera Reineckii is very sensitive to NO3 excess. First of all, you should not add so much NO3 after WC (i think this is the main reason of growing twisting leaves). Try to keep NO3 2..5 ppm in the water column for some time. Seachem Equilibrium contains lots of potassium (50 ppm K at 100% dose) so if you add another K from K2SO4 source you may really have very high K levels. Most plants accept high K but some plants don't. One of such plants is A.Reineckii. If lowering NO3 doesn't help i think it is something wrong with Ca/Mg/K. High K levels may lead to Mg deficiency. Could you write exactly what amounts of Equilibrium, K2SO4, CaCL2 and MgSO4 you dose ? (we'll try to find what's wrong)

Left C

Hi Kekon

This is the post that I believe misled me about your NO3 amounts. Here it is.

I'm keeping my nitrate level between 0.1 and 5.0 ppm, but I have a problem with phosphates right now. The city is adding 2.5 ppm of Sodium hexametaphosphate to keep the old water pipes from corroding. This makes the PO4 level in the tap water 2+ ppm. My GH is actually 30 ppm and not 40 ppm like I mentioned earlier. I just started increasing my GH from 30 ppm to 60 yesterday. It's a little too early to see any results. The high PO4 level is a problem. It has me stumped. I really don't want to use RO water. The reason that I started a new regimen is to not dose any added phosphate, have a low NO3 level and tweek the GH, Ca, Mg to help with the twisted leaves.

Like I mentioned, I'm using Edward's PPS-Pro with another tank and it's doing well. There's good growth and no algae issues now.

Thanks

Left C

kekon

I kept 10 ppm NO3 for some time only to see if it had any effect on plants. It turned out it hadn't had any influence concerning faster growth, better pearling etc. so i had decreased it back to max. 5 ppm.

I think this should help but one has to wait at least 4..5 days to see the effect. In my tank any effect of increasing GH is seen usually within a week time.
High PO4 in your tap could also be a problem. I was told by DefDac that lower PO4 was better for Alternateras and i can confirm that. However, higher PO4 is not as harfmful to some plants as higher NO3. Let's see what happens in a few days.

Left C

Hi Kekon

I had just started thinking about and trying out a new dosing regimen about the same time that I ran across your thread. Your regimen is similar to what I am wanting to try. I had just tried a solution version of EI that is dosed daily, but I added no phosphate because of the high phosphate level already in my tap water. Within two days BBA showed up. I quit that version of EI and I did water changes, added extra Excel and only dosed 5 ppm NO3 every other day followed by a small amount of micronutrients. The BBA is practically gone now and I am just getting started to try a regimen similar to yours.

I'll do one more water change and start fresh there. I'm planning on dosing NO3 at low levels, 0 dosing PO4, but monitoring it and following your guidlines about the GH, Ca, Mg and K levels to help with the twisted leaves.

Again, thanks!

Left C

DBTS

Wow! This is a very imformative thread. Seeing as i think i have the same problems with my tank. Since 2 weeks ago after missing out on a weekly water change to which I add Ca and Mg to, been noticing curled, deformed, twisted leaves on my L. brevipes. And just this week stunting on my R. rotundifolia. And me thinks it might be due to high NO3 dosage and probably low GH (bad test kit so I'm assuming here). But I whenever I do add CaCO3 and Epsom salt to every water change the leaf problem do seem to be less. So i think i'll give this one a try and see for myself.

detlef

Thanks Kekon for your in-depth reply on Fe/Mn dosing the other day!

May I ask you some more questions?

1. I understand you add 0,5 - 1ppm NO3 per day (and 1ppm NO3 only after wc) when dosing all 3 forms of nitrogen salts (for example from "Eudrakon N", DRAK-Aquaristik) into very soft water (e.g. GH 2-3), right?

2. Which is about how much less NO3 than what you would dose using solely KNO3?

3. Since N is taken up/consumed rapidly during the course of day by plants/bacteria etc. would you please tell me when (e.g.time after dosing) and how (test equipment) you measure low level NO3 to get reliable and repeatable readings?

And again thank you very much for all the work you've done so far. My fertilizing experience seems to support your findings regarding stunted/crinkled growth. So, I'm inclined to say you've found the "missing link" in dosing regimes.
Another 10.000 plant points for Kekon, please!

Best regards,
Detlef

BryceM

Kekon,

I've been following this discussion with great interest. Your observations are in-line with my own observations, but I'm curious about why more people don't report issues with stunting. Many people seem to be having success with the EI method of fertilizing, even with "difficult" species. For those who don't know, basically the concept is to supply all nutrients in great over-abundance with frequent water changes to "reset" the system. Proponents of the EI method report no problems whatsoever with NO3 levels up to 40, 60, or even 80 ppm. Many people using that system dose 20 or 30ppm of NO3 per week.

It's also a well-known fact that the majority of aquarium-keepers in the United States (where the EI method is popular) have relatively hard water, usually at least GH 10 dH. I'm wondering if this is the reason why EI methods work so well for them.

Now I'm not EI-bashing here. I think the idea behind the method is sound, but that typical recommended doses are far too high. The more closely one looks at this issue the more it becomes apparent that one particular fertilizing regimen will not work equally well in all circumstances.

I'm wondering if you have any experience with green algae on the aquarium glass. My personal experience is that this is often closely tied to NO3 levels. The worst bouts that I've observed happened when NO3 got up around 40 ppm. Any thoughts?