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Old 07-18-2007, 12:52 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to balance NPK, Ca, Mg and micros - new experiments

Hey kekon, I got a question about soft water.

I just started up a new tank with AS so I just started dosing. I haven't run into any algae problems so far but a few of my rotala are showing signs Ca/Fe/K deficiency(new leaves curling and stunted).
I'm dosing ~10ppm K+ and micros every W/C (3x/week)

My water source is fairly soft however the Ca and Mg levels are approximately the same(using the State's local water quality data set):
Ca= 15mg/L
Mg= 10mg/L
GH= 4

The rest of my plants are doing better than great it's just the rotalas, which are usually my easiest plant to grow in other substrates using EI previously.

I figure since AS is probably leeching NH4 I'm holding back on the N03 for now. My tap has plenty of P04 and my plants show no signs of deficiency there. So I'm assuming N/P/K covered.

Should I be adding Ca to get the ratio to 4:1 or will this level be sufficient for the plants?

If it's not Ca, then I'll up my iron a bit, perhaps?

Thanks
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Old 07-18-2007, 03:58 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to balance NPK, Ca, Mg and micros - new experiments

Scottio do you have the other levels
NO3
PO4
Fe

An idea of K (approx...)?

Personnally I will up my Ca to the 5/1 ratio to be safe.
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Old 07-18-2007, 04:10 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to balance NPK, Ca, Mg and micros - new experiments

I'd also caution against relying on city reports. Most cities have more than one water source and the exact chemical composition of the water can vary dramatically. They often use a combination of wells and surface water sources and they sometimes switch seasonally and sometimes even in a single day. The reported lab sample usually represents only a given point in time for a single location in the system.
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Old 07-19-2007, 06:41 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to balance NPK, Ca, Mg and micros - new experiments

Hi Kekon, it seems that you discoverd something useful about plants fertilization. I tried the EI method too, but I had only problems with no end: curling plants, and many kind of algaes.
I try to mantain the P-N ratio what you advised and I also add 20 mg/L K at every water change.
I started to like the result
But I have one question for you about micros. What is your opinion, how much CSM+B should I dose after water change or daily?

Best wishes, Aquamaniac
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Old 07-20-2007, 03:48 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to balance NPK, Ca, Mg and micros - new experiments

Sorry for the delay but the forum doesn't always infrom me when new posts are placed... I don't know how to fix it..

Quote:
My water source is fairly soft however the Ca and Mg levels are approximately the same(using the State's local water quality data set):
Ca= 15mg/L
Mg= 10mg/L
GH= 4
This is not good condition for plants. I've always had issues with plants when Ca was close to Mg. Usually when there is too much Mg some leaves curl upward along edges - this is a classic Ca deficiency induced by Mg excess. I noticed that good Ca:Mg ratio is in the range 3:1..4:1. I had 2:1 some time ago and it worked well but Ca was 8 and Mg was 4. At such low values 2:1 ratio is good but if there were Ca = 80 and Mg = 40 most plants would be stunted. I mean, low Ca:Mg ratio works well when both Ca and Mg are very low but it doesn't when they are higher. So it seems you should add some Ca to reach 40 ppm for example. I think this will help quickly.

Quote:
But I have one question for you about micros. What is your opinion, how much CSM+B should I dose after water change or daily?
In my opinion adding micro on daily basis is better. Some time ago i was experimenting with adding micro after WC only, but it didn't improve anything. When i added micros after WC only (once a week) i noticed Fe deficiency quite quickly (usually within a 5 days). Adding "x ppm Fe" after WC doesn't work the same as adding the same amount of iron on daily basis (x / 7).
I don't know exactly what the CSM+B composition is but i would add it in such amounts so that boron weekly dose wasn't higher than 0.02 ppm (or even lower - 0.015 ppm). 0.015 ppm of boron weekly was the highest value beyond which some plants got stunted in my tank.

Quote:
It's also a well-known fact that the majority of aquarium-keepers in the United States (where the EI method is popular) have relatively hard water, usually at least GH 10 dH. I'm wondering if this is the reason why EI methods work so well for them.
That's the reason why EI works well If there is plenty of Ca and Mg there aren't isuues with growing plants. My tap water GH usually varies in 11..18 range. The highest GH is usually in the summer and the lowest in the winter. Most people in Poland also have hard water and most of them uses only tap water for their tanks. Some even have GH = 20 or higher.

Quote:
May I ask you some more questions?

1. I understand you add 0,5 - 1ppm NO3 per day (and 1ppm NO3 only after wc) when dosing all 3 forms of nitrogen salts (for example from "Eudrakon N", DRAK-Aquaristik) into very soft water (e.g. GH 2-3), right?

2. Which is about how much less NO3 than what you would dose using solely KNO3?

3. Since N is taken up/consumed rapidly during the course of day by plants/bacteria etc. would you please tell me when (e.g.time after dosing) and how (test equipment) you measure low level NO3 to get reliable and repeatable readings?
AD.1 Yes, this is the dose i add but now my GH is about 7..8. However i also added it into the water of GH = 4. I increased GH in order to be in "a safe state" in case when NO3 accidentally jumps to higher levels (due to overfeeding fish, too little water changed during WC etc.) Higher NO3 in higher GH is not as harmful as in low GH (low GH + higher NO3 = stunting - this is what i was searching for over a year)

AD.2 I noticed 1.5 to 2.0 times more NO3 must be added when NO3 is the only source of N. However, i can see many plants don't care about N forms and grow well at low and higher NO3.
I spoke to a farmer when i was buying chemical compounds to make my ferts. He told me than nowadays they never fertilized terrestial plants with NO3 only. They also add NH4 or/and urea.

AD.3. Once i checked my test kit by comparing NO3 measured in laboratory. The test kit showed 20 ppm NO3 and laboratory test 16 ppm so it was not that bad. Now i use Hagen NO3 test and often calibrate it with reference solutions with a known NO3 value (usually 5 and 10 ppm). After WC, i often measure NO3 below 5 ppm. At the end of the week NO3 is also below 5 ppm (when i add 1 ppm NO3 daily). I know it's not very accurate but sometimes i compare the colors of tested water sample from my tank with the sample of reference solution ( 5 ppm). The color of the first sample is lighter so i know it is below 5 ppm. I can also take the sample to the laboratory but i think the results will be almost the same. The only important for me is the fact than NO3 is never higher than 5 ppm which i consider to be a safe level in my tank and all the plants grow well.

Quote:
Another 10.000 plant points for Kekon, please!
Oh, thanks but i'm not an expert ("each tank is different"... so i can be taken by surprise by my plants many times in the future). Please take into account the fact that i use pure RO water so i know exactly what elements i add.
Before i bagan experimenting i learned many things from all of you so you should be given thousands of plant points
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Old 07-22-2007, 12:44 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to balance NPK, Ca, Mg and micros - new experiments

Plants can always surprise you that's the fun part anyway...


The following specs are given just as information on how lean a tank can be run:

My tank water is just a little above 7ppm Ca2+ and 1ppm Mg2+, GH about 21ppm. NO3 hovering around 0,5 to 2ppm max. (calibrated kit). Tank with ADA soil Amazonia. Fertilization daily: small amounts of KNO3 as the sole N source plus KH2PO4, MgSO4, Brighty K, trace and lots of CO2 mist. Stable param's and no stunting or curly leaves for months now. Not the fastest of growth which may be due to medium light of around 2WPG. So, you can definitely go that low. I presume this is not too far away from ADA's water values...


Kekon, thanks again for taking time and replying.

Best regards,
Detlef

Last edited by detlef : 07-22-2007 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:12 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to balance NPK, Ca, Mg and micros - new experiments

Hi Detlef,

your Waterparameters are truely alot like Amano. How much KNO3 and KH2PO4 do you add daily? And what brand of trace fertilizer do you use and how much do you add?

Best Regards
Tobi
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Old 07-27-2007, 02:28 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to balance NPK, Ca, Mg and micros - new experiments

If my calc's are right I fertilize about 1,1ppm NO3 and 0,13ppm PO4 daily. Trace is from ADA Step1 (2ml) plus ECA (2drops) again added daily (tank is holding about 84L gross).

Since substrate is Amazonia with PS the plants should be able to get some N and P from there also (either dissolved or directly by the roots).

Nice to see another German here, hi Tobi!

Best regards,
Detlef
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Old 07-27-2007, 02:52 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to balance NPK, Ca, Mg and micros - new experiments

I'm thinking of setting up a nano tank in which i could test different plant species under different conditions especially in very soft water and very low nitrogen doses. I have a 12 liters tank but it seems it would be good thing to have bigger one. In the nano tank it's much easier to change all the water to set quite different water parameters (especially Ca; now i use CaCO3 but i hate grinding it in order for it to take a form of dust which dissolves very easy)
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Old 07-27-2007, 03:50 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to balance NPK, Ca, Mg and micros - new experiments

Hi Kekon,

long ago I found that it seems to be important including the filter media (and of course possible leakage of substrate or decaying matter) into our considerations when we try to calculate N consumption by plants. Loss of N through the activity of filter bacteria (N2 production etc.) should be avoided by all means. Otherwise you'll end up with wrong (too high) values. It could be done for example by using coarse foam cubes or carbon which do not allow for anaerobic areas.

Kekon, what you're planning to do (nutrient uptake of different SAMs or water plant species) hasn't been done before to the best of my knowledge. So I really would like to encourage you in continuing the good work.


Best regards,
Detlef

Last edited by detlef : 07-27-2007 at 04:00 AM.
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