taekwondodo

My A. Renekii has never looked this good.

After years of trying to overgass my fish, combined with spoonfulls of EI or various other strategies, I am starting to firmly believe a majority of us are asking the wrong questions when we see a curled-up leaf or twisted stem - that question being, "what nutrient am I deficient in?".

The problem I've always had with EI (and even with PPS, to an extent) is that i was always having to do 70%+ resets or my NO3 (Lamotte) was through the roof (over 40 ppm top end of the Lamotte kit). After the "big" reset, things would go just "ok" for a few weeks but never real great - so the phrase "you don't have enough CO2" would be said - when in fact I knew I was well over 30ppm. Measure NO3 a few weeks later - again, as long as I was dosing some NO3 via EI I was well into the upper-end of my Lamotte kit.

Now, when I was younger (and much more stupid), I used to really be into "house plants" and used to do a lot of this hydroponically (with HID and CO2). Whenever I would over fertilize, I would get curly and twisting leaves and stems and the plants would significantly stunt - sound familiar? I would have to flush the system and go back to the basics - and it would take a few weeks for the house plants to start growing normal again, but once they did, everything would go well until I tried to overdrive the plants again with Nitrogen. (oh - for clarification, I am an honest contributing member of society today who votes conservatively and the only HID lights I have today are over my reef tank )

I'm now starting to firmly believe that stunting, curling and just plain all out weird growth in my tank resembles what I've seen in poorly and overly fertilized "house plants" - twisted and curled up leaves - and that as long as we have a usable amount of P, N or K, it doesn't matter how little it is as much as it matters that there isn't too much of it.

Thinking this through - I did a lot of reading (threads by kekon were very valuable in my thought process) and everyone was focused on the "ratios", particularly between Ca and NO3 - but then others were having valid and perfectly awesome growth with pure RO water. The common denominator between a lot of these threads wasn't so much the ratio - it was that none of the successful "notes" indicated any significant excesses of N except when they were having problems - and then trying to coorellate this to some ratio of N to K or N to Ca. Again, what I saw in most of these threads was that the plants did best when N was present in small amounts but not in abundance.

That being said, I left EI about a month ago because it just wasn't working no matter how much I adjusted the CO2 or lighting levels I was always surprised by the build-up of NO3. That and continual GDA covering the glass (and no amount of "GDA cycling" solved this problem).

So I went to PPS Pro as an alternative - and - after a few weeks I was still having NO3 build-up. Next step, I cut my PPS pro dosages in half and measured to ensure I wasn't ever spiking my NO3 above 15-20 ppm (targeting a steady 5-10ppm).

For the last couple of weeks, my A. Renekii has slowly started to straighten out and I swear that right now, I have the best growth coming out of A. Renekii I have ever seen (above the twisting, etc). I will add a picture when I get the chance...

As Archimedes said when he jumped out of the tub: "Eureka!"

Freemann

Well to be sincere you say nothing new to me. I have come to the same conclusions concerning keeping NO3 dosing really low, for me aswell high NO3 stunts the plants around 1,2 ppm No3 daily here is enough. I had very similar problems when I tried to use EI. On the other hand in my case at least adding a bit more KH2SO4 (0,5-1 ppm) than that added from KNO3 will improve plant growth even more. At the same time I find that keeping the Fe, TE a bit on the high side will help even more the look of this previously curly plants.

jeff5614

Freemann, what are your PO4 levels like?

Freemann

I add 0.2 ppm PO4 daily. Growth on the tank at the moment is superb (including the so called difficult ones) on all species, no algae whatsoever. Only complaint is a few light green leaves on some species.

Brilliant

Guess what?!?! If you dont have alot of light you dont need alot of nutrients!

Instead of reading kekon go read PJAN. Keeping a 'positive pressure' of nutrients is what I've noticed works best. EI is dose it every few days and your good because of lasting excess then reset because all tanks are not the same and one recipe needs to work for all. In my case my tank would eat up EI and I was always left wondering why people cry excess...ofcouse I do not run EI on my lower light tanks so no need to go crying about it. IMO PPS is just EI but daily and little tweaking...almost perfect...

In my train of thought ratios are key to dosing because one nutrient seems to run others out causing issues. Not that its too much one of one, it's just not enough of the other(s).

I would say you are finally onto something here. Nice to see your on the straight and narrow

taekwondodo

I had both massive amounts of CO2 AND between 130 and 260 watts of CFL (55g, depending on my lighting schedule) - and gassing and spooning the tank until fish were dead or dying. I always had excess NO3 when using EI - so much so that when I would finally measure the NO3 I (even right after a reset) I was shocked at how much NO3 was still in the tank. And I have lots of fast growers too - R. Indica, R. Macrandra, A. Renekii, H. Difformis, L. Aromatica, a floor of hairgrass, etc...

And the funny things, is I have and have had amazing tanks before - high and low light. My 5G at work is stunning and gets almost no fertilization and very low light - for a rule-breaker there I've got the best glosso carpet I've seen, hands down, anywhere.

Its only when I started subscribing to the "Internet forums" and seeing/listening to "experts" was when I started having constant and never ending problems with twisting/curling and GDA. Before EI, I had a forest of R. Wallachi with the finest purple tips... then the stunting issues began and I started the search for "which nutrient am I deficient" - Turns out (IMHO) I was never deficient... I believe the problem was abundance.

And I realize that EI works for a lot of people - Its just never worked for me. Yes, in a way, both are adding nutrients to the tank on a schedule, but what I like about PPS over EI, is I know exactly how much is being added and I can add small amounts daily and not dump in large amounts every other day. By knowing how much I am adding in, I can feel more comfortable in running the tank on a more stable and predictable nutrient amount - and not get shocked by the testing of NO3 at the end of the week.

BryceM

For some perspective on this topic, go back a few years. It wasn't that long ago that the thought of actually adding NO3 or PO4 to an aquarium would have been viewed as ridiculous. Adding typical EI quantities would have been viewed as cruely destructive. They are waste products, after all.

A few people eventually realized a need for macro supplementation when they started driving light and CO2 to levels not previously attained. If a little is good, a lot is better - right? Maybe not. Things probably got a bit out of hand and they probably still are. For many decades people kept very nice planted tanks without ever dosing macros beyond what was supplied via fish food and maybe a little via the substrate. There is actually quite a bit of nitrogen available to the aquarium from the natural decay of plant material, breakdown of debris in the substrate (mulm), and from the waste products of the fish.

I've been experimenting with a heavily planted 46g aquarium for over 2 years. For the last 9 months I haven't added anything to the water but fish food. Not one single supplement. Not one bit of fertilizer. No traces, no macros. The tank is moderately stocked with 3 SAE's, 20 cardinals, 3 small praecox rainbows, 3 small corries, and 3 glass cats. I feed once per day. The tank contains java ferns, petite Anubias, Didiplis, Hydrocotyle, Hemianthus, Polygonums, Cyperus helferi, Eliocharis, Ludwigias, Hygros, and Rotalas. The plants are beautiful with intense coloration. Leaves on the hydrocotyle are slightly smaller than before and are less intensely green than before but everything grows like crazy. There is no stunting. The tank is 100% algae free - literally no algae whatsoever. The water is crystal clear with no protein surface film. It has 8x23W spiral compact fluorescents in a DIY hood with not much of a reflector. I add 1 bps of pressurized CO2 during the photoperiod. I do a 40% waterchange every 6 weeks or so, if I happen to remember. Substrate is 4" of charcoal SMS. I can't grow Pogostemon, Ludwigia senagalensis, or Rotala macranda in this tank, but apart from that, everything else does ok. It certainly looks healthy. There is no stunting......... What's so bad about a CO2 enriched moderate-light tank?

If I ever loose my mind and start supplementing this tank, I'd only use a little extra Fe and maybe a bit of K. Honestly though, why mess with a good thing?

Brilliant

For the record...I think EI is excessive in most cases. I also think if you notice a nutrient thats higher and running in excess consistently then you should lower dosing of that nutrient

I dont think there is anything wrong with any type of setup. I have alot of different setups myself most dont get any N or P. I am really a fishkeeper...(shhh dont tell anyone) when I first started with plants I was very hesitant to add macros.

Glouglou

Exactly what I think. A High CEC and nutritive soil for substrate to keep the water column lean. Small amount of everything present. Just add nutrients that diseappear from test to test.
Ex: If NO3 stay around 3 ppm without any fertilization it’s because the plants take what they need and fill their reserve overtime. If for some reason NO3 Drop just addd to go back to your 3ppm (repeat until saturation, and stop)

That how I will drive the new tank I‘m putting together and will report back to you.

The goal is to dose on consumption basis....

Brilliant

Yeah, I think everyone really needs to understand these dosing plans are not written in stone. Each nutrient can be increased or decreased.

In my case the ratio in Wö£fëñxXx dosing regime works fine on my high light tank. I just alter how much of that solution I am dosing per day till I find that sweet spot.

If I am using EI to make my solutions but dosing it daily does that mean I am not dosing EI.?! I dont really understand all of this, you dont have to strictly follow the plan. I thought it is just meant to be a starting point.

If yes, I guess I could rip EI off Barr...instruct you to dose it daily instead and call it something new right!? Oh wait that is already done! doh