ray-the-pilot

I presume that the numbers at the bottom of each nutrient is a recommendation on the best levels.

I guess that 10 - 20 PPM of nitrates might be good for plant growth but the recommended level for nitrates in drinking water in less than 10 PPM. I would suggest not drinking water with nitrates at this level.

Is 10 - 20 PPM of nitrates found where plants are growing successfully in the wild?

HeyPK

Is 10-20 PPM nitrates found where aquatic plants grow in the wild? Usually nitrates are barely measurable in the wild. Almost always less than 1 or 2 ppm. I tested San Marcos river water and found no measurable nitrates (that means less than 1ppm) with a LaMotte kit, but the river was loaded with healthy looking plants.

ray-the-pilot

So why are the recommended levels of K and NO3- so high on the fertilator?

My goal is a biotype aquarium featuring discus in a planted setting. I don't want all that NO3- It goes against everything you would expect in a natural setting.

jazzlvr123

not necessarily, nitrates and other water parameters vary from place to place even from times of the year especially when your talking about freshwater biotopes as opposed to saltwater, freshwater environments go through seasons. If you test the waters of south Florida's freshwater streams you will notice crystal clear clean water, high GH and no more than 2 ppm of nitrates at any given time. This is mainly becuase of the VERY VERY heavy plant load that consumes Florida's riverbeds consuming nitrates faster than they can be distributed. but if you test the black water streams of south Americas amazon (where discus come from). you will notice extremely higher TDS readings, way lower GH and (getting back to the question) nitrates anywhere from 5 to 30 ppm depending on the season. A nitrate load of 10-20 ppm will no be detrimental to the health of a discus.

as long as you have a decent plant load to consume nitrates as they are dosed you will not have any problems. if your worried about dosing too many nitrates try dosing half the recommended amount and just increase your dosage when (or if) you notice any plant deficiency's. nitrates deficiency is always a clear indicator that your nitrates are at zero by the end of the day leaving your discus stress free. however there a better way to see where your nitrates are and adjusting your dosage accordingly....... BY USING A TEST KIT

ray-the-pilot

Can you point me somewhere to document this? It kind of goes against what I've read.

BTW I have a nitrate test kit and do use it so you don't have to shout.

Edward

Hi ray-the-pilot
Jazzlvr123 is right. Additionally, just for your information, there are cities with tap water at 30 ~ 50 ppm of NO3 and people still drink it.

Now back to your plan. Running a planted discus aquarium is not easy. These fish are large and produce tons of waste, mostly NO3. Even if you plant 100% of the surface and setup continuous water change you still will have a hard time to keep NO3 low. So don’t worry, it’s normal.



Edward

ray-the-pilot

I didn’t say Jazzlvr123 was wrong. I said “it kind of goes against what I've read” which is still true after you say it.

Since this is the Science of Aquatic Fertilizing board doesn’t it seem appropriate to ask for a reference?

BTW I don’t doubt that people are drinking water with a lot of nitrates in them. It is a common water pollutant. In my town, if the nitrates were as high as you indicated, the town would have to send out a report to everyone who uses their water indicating that the water is out of compliance with EPA guidelines. They would also have to come up with some way to fix the problem.

For humans and animals NO3- has no benefits and can only produce harm. So putting it in your aquarium is a compromise at best. You should try to keep it as low as practically possible.

hoppycalif

Sorry, I can't resist this: Do you have a reference for that last statement?

Tom Barr has done extensive experimenting with nitrates at various concentrations, and concluded that up to well beyond what we might see from fertilizing, excess nitrate does no harm that is visible. Using the EI fertilizing method could possibly cause you to see 40 ppm of nitrate on some occasions, so he tested at (as I recall) double that amount. Like any salt, keeping the concentration down to what is needed is going to be a good idea, but that doesn't mean a big problem will occur if you don't. (My opinion - no reference.)

HeyPK

Higher nitrates in the aquarium than you would ever find in nature are not harmful, possibly up to 80 or more ppm. The reason for keeping them higher than in nature is that in the aquarium you have a lot of plant biomass in relation to the amount of water. In nature there usually is a much much smaller plant biomass in relation to the amount of water. In nature, even if there is only 1 ppm nitrate in the water, it constitutes a large amount of nitrates relative to the amount of plants, and the plants would take a long time to draw down this amount to a level where they couldn't pick up enough to maintain a normal growth rate. In the aquarium, on the other hand, they could draw down 1 ppm overnight to such a low level that they would soon become deficient.

ray-the-pilot

Quote from hoppycalif: "Sorry, I can't resist this: Do you have a reference for that last statement?"

Re:rtp statement: "For humans and animals NO3- has no benefits and can only produce harm. So putting it in your aquarium is a compromise at best. You should try to keep it as low as practically possible."

Use your search engine on "nitrates" "water" and you'll get lots of hits.

Here is something from Penn State that talks about the negative heath effects of nitrates:

http://www.water-research.net/Waterl...ll/nitrate.pdf

I cannot prove that there are positive helth effects from nitrate for humans and animals because it is impossible to prove that something that does not exist, does not exist. All you can say is there is no evidence to support it. So I’ll modify my statement to say, "There are no known benefits to animals from nitrates."

If you can find some evidence to support the fact that nitrates are beneficial to animals I’ll change my statement.

I'll make one more statement about this:

If I were growing corn in Iowa, I wouldn't be worried about harming my corn having more nitrates in the soil than the corn can immediately use. I would be worried about what all those nitrate are doing to the soil, groundwater and local animals. I would use the lowest amount of nitrate as practical to maintain my crop. (BTW, I'd be saving money as well).