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Old 04-28-2010, 07:04 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cant figure out that deficiency .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi bsmith,

I agree with Newt, I stopped dosing the "extra" K by discontinuing the K2SO4. Let us know how things go!
So just stop the k2so4 all together and dose per ei dosing for a 40g?

If so ill do a 50% wc with 100% ro water tonight and see what happens tomorrow.
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Old 04-28-2010, 07:11 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cant figure out that deficiency .

Yes, stop potassium sulfate dosing.

Forget EI dosing. Read this thread: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...s-summary.html
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Old 04-29-2010, 05:10 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cant figure out that deficiency .

I'm going to go against the grain here and say that the "THE CONTROLLED IMBALANCE METHOD" is just a repackaged, rebranded form of PMDD and I will go on to say that extra K isn't going to hurt anything!

bsmith, if you have non-limiting nutrients including CO2 which you stated you saturated the tank with then the only thing it can be is your lighting. I know you said that you are using only two T5HO bulbs at a time however they are mounted right on the tank from what the photo shows.

Perhaps if you raise the lights 6"-12" above the tank that may very well solve your problems. The imbalance comes from not providing the nutrients the plants demand from the acceleration placed on them by the lights whether it be from macros, micros or CO2.

Also I have to ask you if there was ample surface agitation when you added more CO2, did you increase the O2 by adding more surface movement.

One more thing I would like to add, EI has served me very well. Contrary to what some believe, it isn't dumping a bunch of ferts in your tank and walking away (however if that's what you want to do then you can, great for you). Estimative Index allows you modify the ferts anyway you need to, hence the "Estimative" part. You can add more of or use less of any nutrient your tank requires. EI is not written in stone. You can "modify" it anyway you like, that's the beauty of it. You can customize it to suit your tanks needs. The flexibility of EI is limited by the user, not the method. If EI fails, it's user error. Estimating what to add to your tank and modifying it is not dumping but calculating.

Dan
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:11 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cant figure out that deficiency .

I dont know if you have tested your NO3 and PO4 levels as you havent mentioned it.
Here is a list of deficiencies and probable causes.
Potassium deficiency does not have the issues you have expressed.........and , yes, too much sulfate is not good for a tank.
Attached Files
File Type: doc Warning signs of Nutrient Deficiency in Plants.doc (36.0 KB, 92 views)

Last edited by Newt; 04-29-2010 at 08:12 AM.. Reason: word added
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:20 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cant figure out that deficiency .

H bsmith,

I cannot validate Dantra's comment concerning excess Potassium.
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Originally Posted by Dantra View Post
and I will go on to say that extra K isn't going to hurt anything!
My personal experience as well as research here "High imbalance of K will cause first Mg then Ca deficiency." and here "Excess potassium may cause deficiencies in magnesium and possibly calcium." definitely indicate that excess Potassium results in deficiencies of Mg and Ca.

My experience has been that leaves that are already deformed will show minimum if any improvement. I usually watch new leaves to see if the symptoms diminish.
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:14 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cant figure out that deficiency .

Well said Roy

Here is a good link to what Roy is talking about:
http://www.finostrom.com.gr/images/a...lizers/map.htm

Last edited by Newt; 04-29-2010 at 08:58 AM.. Reason: added link
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:08 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cant figure out that deficiency .

Now just out of curiosity, if you're already dosing non-limiting levels of K+ and other nutrients, with growth within the tank is light limited, how is it possible to have excess K+ causing Mg/Ca deficiencies? If it's a matter of luxury potassium somehow blocking uptake, how would a Hoagland solution not cause this issue?

It's the CO2. People hate hearing it, but it's the hardest thing to perfect. Most people walk away assuming a light green drop checker is all they needed, without ever having tried to improve their flow or testing the DC close to the substrate/in stands of plants. Even if these steps are taken, High light makes it much, much harder to distribute the CO2 properly or attain decent levels... the equivalent of 3.6wpg of T8 is completely excessive and offers no benefits outside of fast growth (with likely uglier morphology). If the fixture is new, it's going to be around 50% higher output for the first 3 months (I have links to PAR charts if you'd like). Turn the light down and watch the problem solve its self after a few extra WC's and algae scrubbing.

Incidentally, Ca deficiency is the favored scapegoat for Co2 issues... take your choice of Mg or K+ to be blamed when the holes appear. I've been one of those who has used it, and even tried to tell Tom he was wrong about my issues; probably one of my more embarrassing moments. Having to admit an expensive fixture wasn't worth the money isn't exactly easy either... it's like trying to tell someone their pH controller was a waste of time.

MCI admits to actually taking more work than EI and claims no better results. You have to chase algae around, rather than just not dealing with it. The method should've pretty much been scrapped by its own creator with this thread: http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthrea...=307546&page=2

I know he's got honest intentions, but his methods are clearly a long ways off being sound. As I've said before, he could take that research/experience and make a great guide for plant morphology. This hobby needs a morphology guide far more than another "for dummies" dosing system.

Last edited by Philosophos; 04-29-2010 at 09:30 AM..
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:00 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cant figure out that deficiency .

As I just stated to Tom in This thread, I have co2 as high as it can possibly go with out killing my fish. My tank looks horrible and I dont want to kill my fish too.
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:26 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cant figure out that deficiency .

Hi bsmith,

I think you mean this thread!
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:47 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cant figure out that deficiency .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
H bsmith,

I cannot validate Dantra's comment concerning excess Potassium.

My personal experience as well as research here "High imbalance of K will cause first Mg then Ca deficiency." and here "Excess potassium may cause deficiencies in magnesium and possibly calcium." definitely indicate that excess Potassium results in deficiencies of Mg and Ca.

My experience has been that leaves that are already deformed will show minimum if any improvement. I usually watch new leaves to see if the symptoms diminish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newt View Post
Well said Roy

Here is a good link to what Roy is talking about:
http://www.finostrom.com.gr/images/a...lizers/map.htm

Nice chart however it doesn't state at what ppm the deficiency begins. Of course deficiency can occur but the amount of K+ that we dose in our tanks is no where near the amount needed to cause a deficiency. Does the deficiency happen at 25ppm, 50ppm, 100ppm, 200ppm, 300ppm?

If we dose extra K+ and it puts us at 50ppm-75ppm it will not cause a deficiency of Mg and Ca. I doubt very much we are even close to that amount in our tanks but extra K+ will demand that you have all your ducks in a row. If your CO2 or lights aren't up to par (pardon the pun) as well as the other nutrients then yes you will suffer an imbalance and/or algae will occur and/or your plants may show stunting etc...

Limiting a nutrient like K+ will decrease the rates of growth of the plants so when we don't limit K+ the plants will increase the rate of nutrient uptake. I doubt very strongly that the amount of K+ bsmith is dosing in his take is causing a deficiency providing he isn't dosing at 200ppm or higher.

Showing that chart is useless without including at what range of ppm the deficiency starts to occur. As I stated above, adding extra K+ by ways of K2SO4 is not going to hurt anything however high light can cause poor plant growth and algae, CO2 is the hardest to determine that we have enough of and ferts can be ruled out pretty easily.

If you raise your lights, it will slow things down which means less demand of nutrients are required. Less CO2 and ferts. What bsmith tank shows to me is a CO2 issue. If he can't add more CO2 then raising the lights may very well solve the problem.

Dan

Last edited by Dantra; 04-29-2010 at 07:50 PM..
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