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Boron deficiency, or calcium deficiency---or could it be nitrate excess?

30K views 49 replies 15 participants last post by  Elohim_Meth 
#1 ·
I have improved the picture of boron deficiency in Hemianthus.
 
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#3 ·
Re: Plant Deficiency Picture Diagram

Yes, It was after adding boron. Looking carefully at the two pictures, I see that in the deficient plant some of the branches were more badly affected than others, and these branches, while they grew about two internodes during the four days, had not improved leaf shape very much. The less affected branches started producing bigger, more normal leaves. I don't know why, but I seem to get boron deficiency frequently if I don't keep up with my micronutrients.
 
#4 ·
Re: Plant Deficiency Picture Diagram

It's all so tricky... I've gone through it so many times. Sometimes you are looking at your plants and thinking there is boron deficiency and adding more boron, and situation is improved, but not for long time... After a while you are facing again the same stunted growth, and adding yet more boron... And eventually you think that it is boron overdose rather than deficiency... In fact it might be calcium or CO2 deficiency.
I don't mean that you are wrong with adding boron. Just I personally would start from bigger side, would check first my GH and CO2 level, and then increase traces, not boron only but all together.
 
#5 ·
Re: Plant Deficiency Picture Diagram

It has to be either boron or calcium. If I want to add calcium quickly, I add lime in small amounts while adding CO2 to keep the pH from going too high. If I want to add it more slowly, I add some ground limestone. The way to do it is to make sure there is enough calcium, and then, if you see stunted new growth or stubby roots, it has to be boron. For me, adding boron usually lasts for a long time. I don't change water very often, and I usually have to add some more boron after the tank has become fairly full of plants. Then, when the tank becomes packed with plants and the fish start having a hard time getting to where I put in the food, it is time to clear out most of the plants and change the water.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Re: Plant Deficiency Picture Diagram

Nice pictures! The boron problem seems similar to the Rotala macrandra boron deficiency I had. It looks nearly identical. On mine though the deficiency became severe and almost all the leaves seemed to curl downwards along the edges. So the edge of the leaf tucked itself under the main part of the leaf. Calcium deficiency seems to look different, more like someone just pinched the leaf in certain places and the rest grows normally for a while and then pinches off in another direction.

Very interesting stuff. I'd love to see more boron deficiency pictures since it is very uncommon to see photographs of it in aquatic plants.

I think low boron levels might be the reason Rotala mac. is considered a hard plant to grow. I think it is much more sensitive to boron deficiency then most other plants and may actually require slightly more boron then is normally available in the water supply or CSM+B mix.

The holes are from snails chewing away at the leaves not other deficiencies.



 
#9 ·
I just got another boron deficiency picture, this time in an amazon sword. The small, distorted leaves of the sword are similar to the small distorted leaves of the H. micranthemoides plant. Calcium deficiency is similar, but the distorted leaves have white patches or streaks you don't see with boron deficiency.

 
#11 ·
That could be boron deficiency in your Ludwigia. You could try a pinch (1/24 teaspoon, or thereabouts :p) of boric acid per 10 to 15 gallons and see if there is any improvement. Otherwise, you could just dose your tank with the recommended amount of a commercial micronutrient mixture including boron.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Within a few days 3-5 days, new growth came out untwisted. I just hyperdosed CSM+B. I'm getting the problem again now. I'm assuming that the heightened boron levels did the trick for awhile but when I returned to normal dosage i'm getting twisted leaves again.
I thought an excess of Ca was causing the deficiency and by adding a huge amount of B I could sap out the Ca. It didn't work. Recovered for awhile but didn't take up enough Ca.
Is orthoboric acid a good boron source?

EDIT: Threw hazard to the wind, dosed with 8ml of 35g of H3BO3 dissolved in 500ml of water to raise my Boron it about .8ppm. Will tell you how things turn out. Might be awhile though, just trimmed the terminal buds on my indicator ludwigia.
 
#19 ·
Within a few days 3-5 days, new growth came out untwisted. I just hyperdosed CSM+B. I'm getting the problem again now. I'm assuming that the heightened boron levels did the trick for awhile but when I returned to normal dosage i'm getting twisted leaves again.
I thought an excess of Ca was causing the deficiency and by adding a huge amount of B I could sap out the Ca. It didn't work. Recovered for awhile but didn't take up enough Ca.
Is orthoboric acid a good boron source?

EDIT: Threw hazard to the wind, dosed with 8ml of 35g of H3BO3 dissolved in 500ml of water to raise my Boron it about .8ppm. Will tell you how things turn out. Might be awhile though, just trimmed the terminal buds on my indicator ludwigia.
I'm curious, how did your experiment come out? I have had the same problems for some time. and looking for the elusive answer?

Is it OK to ad the boric acid in with the micro mix (CSM+B). Is it possible the acid is reacting with something in the CSM over time when stored dry and reducing its effectiveness?
 
#21 ·
(darkoon) YES but in a tremendously HIGH concentration.

(davejt) CSM+B has Boron in it. That is the +B which is my understanding.

If you have to add Boric acid use by weight 14 parts CSM to 1 part Boric Acid.
 
#22 ·
I should have been more clear. I does CSM-B already, but plants are deficient somewhere, I am pretty sure it is not Magnesium now, so I'm thinking Boron? maybe?

At any rate the real questions would be:

1. could my CSM+B be lacking in Boron do to: bad mix from factory, bad mix/uneven distribution here, age, reacting with something in the mix?

2. Can I mix additional Boron (boric acid) into my trace element solution without problems, I assume so as it is already in the CSM+B. But based on #1 above would Seachem Excel or Iron glucanate or any of the other Irons / traces change the efficacy of the Boron?

3. How much extra Boron would be appropriate? Another 14:1 jolt?

4. Any problems with excess Boron?

5. Any know water issues with Boron uptake? Water too hard? etc.

Thanks.
 
#23 ·
1. could my CSM+B be lacking in Boron do to: bad mix from factory, bad mix/uneven distribution here, age, reacting with something in the mix?
While all of those things are certainly possible, I'm pretty sure that the factory is smart enough to (1) have internal QA/QC procedures to minimize the release of a badly mixed product and (2) know before hand if even adding the B source would cause a problem. The kinetics of B reacting w/ other chemicals could be high enough to cause a problem over a substantial amount of time (i.e. years), but that reaction rate could also be caused by other things out of the manufacturer's control like improper storage (i.e. wet chemicals react much faster to things than dry chemicals). I have CSM+B mix at home and know that it may certainly be possible to get a "bad mix" since there are different particle size of the chemical mix, but without knowing or even being able to examine the individual solids in the mixture, this is just speculation and handwaving at best.

2. Can I mix additional Boron (boric acid) into my trace element solution without problems, I assume so as it is already in the CSM+B. But based on #1 above would Seachem Excel or Iron glucanate or any of the other Irons / traces change the efficacy of the Boron?
Without trying it myself, your best bet would be to just try adding the boric acid yourself and letting us know what the answer is. My guess would be yes, but don't quote me on that. Personally, i would be hesitant to add B in any form to the Seachem products due to the fact that boric acid is an acid and potential reducing agent (according to the Wikipedia entry). Why don't you post this question in APC's Seachem forum section and ask them directly?

3. How much extra Boron would be appropriate? Another 14:1 jolt?

4. Any problems with excess Boron?

5. Any know water issues with Boron uptake? Water too hard? etc.
Everything is toxic in large enough quantities. Check out the wikipedia entry on "Boric Acid" to see for yourself about its toxicity. According to all the posts here, however, the necessary amount of boron isn't very high. (If it was, then B would be considered a macroelement, not a microelement, and it's deficiency would have been known a long time ago, don't you think?) As for water issues, I would just add it to your aquarium and see what happens.

Boron chemistry is probably just less well known in general due to the difficulty in analyzing it (IMHO). My experience analyzing B in the laboratory is that B is a pain to analyze because it sticks to glassware like glue, making it very difficult to analyze (which is why I don't analyze it on my ICP-OES).
 
#26 ·
Hi OTPT,

Good information, thank you for sharing that with us! BTW, welcome to APC!
 
#27 ·
I think my plants are boron deficient.First i thought it could be ca/mg def. since i have a gh around 4 but even after adding lot of gh booster condition improved but not for that extent.So am dosing boric acid now.what you think about it? is it boron or something else?
water parameter
gh----4d
kh-----2-3d
ph-----6.2-6.8
 

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#28 ·
Hi grshs_vny,

I also have very soft water and I have that show up from time to time as well. What are your nitrate and CO2 levels please?

-Roy
 
#30 ·
Hi grshs_vny,

I had the same problem in one of my tanks a couple of weeks ago. I got busy and didn't do any ferts for about 4 days. I did a 50% water change, added enough Seachem Equilibrium to raise my dGH 0.5 degrees.
Guaranteed Analysis
Soluble Potassium (K20) 23.0%
Calcium (Ca) 8.06%
Magnesium (Mg) 2.41%
Soluble Iron (Fe) 0.11%
Soluble Manganese (Mn) 0.06%
Then I started dosing my macros along with CSM+B, extra Iron, and Flourish Comprehensive and the problem seems to be gone. The new leaves seem to be coming out "normal". To be truthful, I am not sure if it was the Macros, Seachem Equilbrium, CSM+B(oron), or Flourish Comprehensive that did the trick.
 
#31 ·
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