TWood

This hobby seems to go through cycles where new reasons for FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) gain traction, fade, and then hang around for years. Sonic needle valves and other CO2 myths, Kelvin and lumens, PO4/algae, and a host of other issues have gotten in the way of success for many people. It would be a shame if this so-called 'impurity' issue causes much FUD when the ag-grade fertilizers already have a history of success.

TW

dennis

I agree with TWood and I must say there is really no need to argue this further. Any postings stating facts concerning either side of this issue are welcome. It would be intersting, and might even prove useful one day, to know the actual purities or other scientific data regarding the various grades; however, any speculation or information not pertaining the the chemicels themselves is a mute point. Case closed.

Salt

I may (if it's not too expensive) send samples of my GW compounds in to a lab for analysis, if only to satisfy my own curiosity since this issue has been raised. One thing to remember is even if I do that, the "impurities" will vary from batch to batch. From what I understand, most of this stuff is mined, and the "agricultural grade" is usually just sieved. One person over at plantedtank speculated that the stuff you're seeing in the K2SO4 is due to rusty sieves. The "ACS" stuff usually goes through one or more purification processes.

I'm open to any suggestions as to where to find a lab to do the testing... preferably somewhere I can easily send the samples to via the mail. If it costs too much I won't be able to do it.

plantbrain

No,

It possesses high NH4, something we know causes algae.
That's something I have tested. Anyone can test that issues.

Maven/Dr Quinn did not suggest adding NH4.
NH4 is fine for terrestrial systems or emergent growth plants.

ADA substrates have NH4 and so do soil based tanks, The best Crypt grower arguably in the world used sheep manure.
It's fine as long none gets into the water column.

So.....perhaps Amano is no good at growing plants........poor health etc?

I have little need for testing trace residuals, I focus on plant health and growth rates, fish health etc.

That is the focus and comparing those growth rates, health to that of the variable of interest(say Ag vs Sc grades) tells you if there is significance in the context of hiorticulture.

That is the real question at issue here.

How far you want to take purity and such should also extend into your tap water, fish food, air, stray electrical current,

You can spend money on many things.
The burden is on the poster to show there is a problem and that it is worth the added expense.

I clearly don't see one, I have a decade's worth of usage on many tanks under many conditions. So do most of the folks on the boards.

So why spend more $ if you do not need to? FUD is the only reason. They never addresses the real question, is there a growth or health difference between the two grades.

They merely suggested FUD as Tom Wood put it so well.

FUD is the demon that infested this hobby to no end.
If you have money to burn on insignificant things, have the materials tested in at least 10-20 replicates.

Then identify the potential significant toxic compunds and see how they influence the plants/critters under controlled conditions.

You have money/time to spend on that right?

You can set up test to learn rather than run scared and waste the $.
I can speak harshly about this monkey business, I know it's BS and have seen many dozens of FUD folks float in/out of the web over the years.

Algae cures are my personal favorite.
Heating cables, RO, excess PO4 oh the list goes on ad nauseum........

How much $ of yours will FUD acquire?

Regards,
Tom Barr

Salt

What's "FUD" ?

edit - Read post above... "fear, uncertainty, doubt"


I would hope my motivation is to learn... not sure what you are implying?

I do appreciate all your info!

plantbrain

Salt, the issue is what the real question actually is.
We can run off and waste time, $, resources etc chasing after something that does not address the application and the questions folks have..........spilling FUD everywhere in the process......that's why I pointed to using RO water, measuring the contents of fish food, air purifiers etc....
there is no end to FUD and marketing.........

The learning here is not to be a sucker.....

This is learning............learning beyond the constituent of what crap is in ag grade stuff, rather, does it make any significant difference in context of aquatic horticulture?

These are entirely different questions.
One will answer the real question, the other will merely answer whether there are a certain amount of X, Y or Z in the ag grade vs Research grade(or whatever grade you chose) chemicals.

Now what does the amount of X, Y and Z tell you after you went to all that trouble?

The learning I'm suggesting is critical thinking, and asking the proper questions to answer and see through all the FUD.

Ask a "good" question, not one that leads to a dozen gazillion other questions and ton more test that are even tougher to answer and lead you to NOWHERE without a lot of resources.

We are aquarist, we need to keep the test simple to answer the question.
There are much more clever ways to see through the issue and design a simple test to find out.

Folks said excess PO4 causes algae. Well, I added excess PO4, no algae, end of story.

It's;s easy to prove what something is not, it's more difficult to prove what something is.

Reflect back on your own common sense here. Was there any issue prior?
Have I ruled out poor maintenance, low CO2, enough NO3?

The history that ag grade chemicals have is long and folks have not been able to trace any issues to it.

This will help you solve future issues far better than this wasteful procedure.

Even if we found As, Ba, Cd etc in the ag chemicals, how much is toxic?
How much will cause issues for plants? fish? Shrimps?

I've done a lot of work with ferts, I've added far more than most folks ever would consider. I did kills some shrimp on purpose last week. I added 120 ppm of NO3 for 3 days. No algae, no fish death, but the shrimp were not happy at this insanely high level.

Similar patterns exist for PO4/Traces/GH/KH/K+.

Maybe is was some other contaminant? So don't add that much NO3


You can use the plants as the gauge as to whether the different grades do better, but you need controls and need to Maintain stable similar conditions for each test.

That's tough for hobbyist, but over time you Can get a feel, it's still a better solution that the proposal which really will not answer the real question, is it worth it for folks to pay 10-50X more for ferts.

Maven says yes, I say no.

I'm not suggesting anyone __not learn or experiment__, quite the opposite, I am suggesting more thought be put into the experiment and __ask__ how to design one that might answer the question without introducing more FUD.

Apparently many don't see this distinction, think I have some attitude or ivory tower BS. They run off testing without much purpose, making lots of work and added expense for themselves, not answering the real question.

Can I grow plants super without the other grades? The same thing can be said about RO water. Does RO, higher fert grades help plants?.

Learning what NOT to do is... as... if not more helpful.
Should you set up a heater cable test also?
No.......

Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com

Edward

Hi

There is nothing wrong with small quantities of other elements in the agricultural grade fertilizing chemicals.
Maven, if you have to add 60 – 140% more minerals to obtain the calculated dGH then there is something else wrong in the process. Not the impurities.
Maybe the CaCl2 is not really the CaCl2 we think it is. Personally I wouldn’t use products like ice melt and stump remover and so on. We can never be sure what’s in it. People often confuse these with agricultural chemicals.

I’ve been running aquariums without water change for years where Tetras are breeding and plants are growing. No toxicity.

The chemicals I use are agricultural grade bulk 50lb bags.

One more issue worth mentioning is the Luxury uptake of plants. Plants take a variety of elements even though they don’t need them and they store them in their tissue. Especially toxic elements. Plants are also used to detoxify contaminated fields.


Thank you
Edward