raven_wilde

Probably a dumb question but:

Endlers and guppies can interbreed?

I don't know why I am surprised by this, livebearers have always been a bit of a mystery to me, even the ones I've managed to keep successfully.

Bert H

Yes. If my memory serves me correctly, Endlers are (were) a subpopulation of guppies that were environmentally isolated. Someone please correct above if wrong.

Jane in Upton

I'm not quite sure about their classification - they CAN interbreed, and produce fertile offspring, so that rules out the usual species distinction (think horse + donkey = mule, which is sterile). BUT, I've read articles about female preference and breeding selection in Endlers and Guppies, and the females of both groups show a strong perference for their "own" type of males. Offspring from a "cross" are not as plentiful (smaller brood size).

Typically the offspring from a "Fancy" guppy x Endlers cross are not as colorful as the fancy guppy, because the specific traits that have been bred for are "diluted". But, there are some very pretty offspring, nonetheless, so I was curious. Often the brilliant coloration of the Endlers shows up in the offspring (neon green streaks, day-glo red spots). Besides which, I have PLENTY of the Endlers (pure wild strain, 'Center Peacock' in their own Endlers-only 15 gal). So, this male will never go back to his fellows - I'm keeping the wild strain isolated. But, I guess I must have less respect for the fancy guppy lines (DOH!) because I was willing to mess with them.

Anyhow, the one solitary guppy baby was probably the Endler's offspring (it had a black dot in his tail developing at only 8-10 days old!). But, he's nowhere to be found, now. This was all recent, too, and both female guppies still look ready to drop a brood of dozens! Their scales are NOT ruffled out, (in fact, they're quite shiny and healthy looking) and other than this unnaturally long-lasting fullness, they show no signs of ill health.

Has anyone else noticed this continual mega-pregnant look?
-Jane

dwalstad

Hi Jane,

I'm not sure that I would worry too much about it.

Why? Because many fish that have passed through my tanks (over the years) probably had tuberculosis. I suspect that the many of the store-bought guppies, Blue Dwarf Gouramis, etc that died within a few weeks were probably infected with TB.

In earlier post (this thread) I discussed the Neon Blue guppies I purchased from an aquarium store in 1987. I suspect now that were infected (at the wholesaler level) with tuberculosis. I purchased at least 6 pairs of these fish over time. None lived more than a couple weeks.

However, I kept one male with a non-infected female (different strain purchased from a guppy breeder) for two weeks in a 5 gal tank before he died. His offspring (see Color Plate 1 in my book) were not infected. Note: TB can be transmitted from a guppy female (or any livebearer) to her young. The chances for a male transmitting it via sperm is probably much, much less.

None of my fish since 1987-2004 seemed to have problems-- despite the fact that I took no precautions.

I do not think that sterilizing equipment is necessary or advisable in your home aquarium situation. Moreover TB bacteria are extremely resistant to sterilization methods-- chloroxing, chemicals, antibiotics, salt, etc. I think cleaning measures just kill normal bacteria that eventually will "outgrow" them. What will truly kill mycobacteria is: a few minutes at 70C (think of "milk pasteurization" used to kill human tuberculosis bacteria) and UV light.

I would keep an eye on the platies but not worry too much. As long as they are breeding and not showing symptoms, you're probably okay. Should any show symptoms (lethargy, not eating, etc), I would euthanize the afflicted fish immediately.

It seems to me that the really virulent strains that cause the problems are mainly associated with diseased fish. Thus, letting fish die in the tank and be picked on by healthy fish is a real no-no. I suspect that mycobacteria don't last long once outside the fish.

Hope this helps!

Diana

JanS

Thanks for your kind words Diana.

One thing that really impressed me with our store in addition to insisting on healthy stock is that they ask the customers questions about their tank conditions before a sale. If they don't believe the customer has the proper accommodations, they won't sell to them even though it means losing a sale. The owner says that he'd rather do the ethical thing than make a couple of bucks.

I agree that more people should be educating aquarists about the possible dangers of the disease being transmitted to humans. I know of one case that it happened and the guy went through an ordeal he never wants to experience again.

plantbrain

One simple and got method, let the fish sit at the LFS for 3 -4 weeks before buying them. You can put a deposit on them. Tell the LFS, whoesaler etc, you'll get them but you are waiting for the new tank it get set up or just say you have something to deal with etc.

Or just wait and hope no one buys them up.

If they die, then it's the LFS's lost and they likely had a something wrong with them.

I never buy fish that have not been there for some time prior.

I agree about the TB, and other diseases, they are extremely rampant in breeding facilities. They don't want you to know that, many are unaware, many simply don't know how to deal with the issues, some are unwilling to put $$$ into control also. They still get paid as long as the fish make it alive, then the wholesaler takes the hit. If not the wholesaler, then the LFS, if not the LFS, then you.

The longer you wait, the higher the chance the fish will be free of the disease and be the stronger batch of the cohort.

The wholesaler I deal with has issues with some sellers/fish and it's not the water. Water quality is very high as my own tanks.

If you insituted proper health care and ethics for the fish hobby across the board, the cost would increase 50-200%, but the quality would be very high also. Only one or two LFS in our area does quarantines. Most LFS's and almost all wholesalers do not.

Regards,
Tom Barr

dwalstad

I'd like to add to the good points made by Tom and JanS:

The well-managed store that I used to shop at was like the one JanS described. (JanS, you're so lucky to have one!) Employees, who all belonged the local fish club, wouldn't let you buy if they thought you were overstocking a new tank, etc. I still remember that they cut me off after a certain number of Rainbowfish! Every morning employees removed dead fish from the tanks... a major disease-management measure. When you went in, there was always water on the floor from people cleaning tanks, etc. Tanks with diseased fish were set aside for quarantine and treatment. I bought many healthy fish from that store when I started setting up tanks again in 1987. I think the healthy fish I got from this store maintained much of my subsequent enthusiasm. This store was always bustling. Evenings, you could hardly get inside. I really miss it.

Another tip to add to Tom's advice on dealing with stores:

No matter how healthy the one fish you want to buy looks, if its tankmates are sick, don't buy it! If there are dead or sick fish in the tank, that should tell you right-off that the store is not serious about disease-management and doesn't care what they sell.

Tuberculosis is currently rampant in the aquarium hobby. If some of the fish in the store's tank are sick, it is more than likely (I'd guess 50:50 odds) that the tankmates that look healthy may be carrying tuberculosis (or some other disease) and will succumb within a few weeks.

raven_wilde

Where I used to live in Central NY the two locally owned fish stores were actually terrible places to shop...dirty, overstocked, and run by uninformed individuals. In one of them the staff would actually purposely leave the dead fish in the tanks. One of the employees informed me that she thought, "it is better anyway to do this, eating them gives the other fish something to do all day". This made the local PetSmart the place I eventually had to turn to to get fish because at least there they kept the tanks clean, oddly enough though, it is where I got the disease infested tetras I will be euthanizing later today after I finish my coffee and get off APC. Essentially, the Ithaca area is a sink for tropical fish... so sad really.

So now that I live in Michigan I totally appreciate the two or three really good stores I have access to. The staff at these places are sooo much more knowledgable, talk to you about your tanks, quarantine their fish, and order from seemingly better sources. I am very very lucky.

Jane in Upton

Thanks for the informative and thoughful answers. Especially if the disease is passed through the mother, this warrants against having kept the solitary Guppy/Endler offspring, even if it had survived.

And by all means, I think pet shop workers should be informed of the risks! This suddenly called to mind a young guy I saw cleaning a tank, with significant "Asphalt Burns" on his arm (the one in the tank) and leg - looked like the results of a skateboarding mishap. Eeek.

OK, well, I won't get overly anxious about the situation, but will keep an eye on the Platys, as you suggested. It is such a shame, as it does quash some enthusiasm for the hobby.

Well, all good information.
Thanks!
-Jane

BryceM

This is a great thread with tons of good information. One point that is important to remember......

The presence of a bacteria or virus does not always produce a disease in the host. In fact, it almost never does. The immune system of fish is no less robust than our own. Even in humans, TB often remains dormant for years and years. In the majority of cases, an infected person shows no outward signs or symptoms and usually dies of something else. So why do we worry about it? Well, there are still a good number of people that do show symptoms and world-wide, it remains a serious disease that kills millions.

Diana already said it, but it's worth emphasizing again - mycobacterium infection in fish is NOT the same disease as TB in humans.

Fish that are stressed are more susceptible to disease. A clean environment, good food, and proper care go a long way. Even fish that are infected can sometimes live perfectly normal lives if the infection does not get out of control. Some will still die, and a new infection introduced with new fish can be devastating. Healthy fish subjected to the abuses of bulk handling, wholesale distribution, and highly variable LFS practices can easily come down with something. Think of it like what happens to humans when subjected to forced-labor camps and such.

One of the best parts of keeping live plants is that it generally results in a great environment for the fish. If nothing else, they're usually being cared for by someone with a bit of intelligence and an actual commitment to the hobby. On average, this will result in lower infection rates, living longer, and more "normal" behavior.