[Wet Thumb Forum]-really bad plant problem

[darren_in_the_marsh]

Question:

1.What nutrients (light spectrum?) are required for older leaves?
2.What nutrients (light spectrum?) often cause smaller node length?

Here is my dilemma:

Growth of my plants are clearly more bushy rather than tall almost as if I could draw a line about half way across my tank, and nothing will grow past that. Ludwigia and swords adhere eerily to this, hygrophilia less.

Growth is generally slower, probably the same biomass, just bushier. The problem, is that once a segment reaches this ‘mystical’ length, its stops growing and the algae sets in, often new growth starting from the nearby node. Its like the older leaves have stopped growing, especially the simple hygrophilia.

Any insights on why leaves stop growing several days after sprouting then just to whither away?

Tank specs:

29 gallon
2 x 55w PC (10k / 6700k)
night time only pressurized CO2 – pH 6.9
KH – 5 (baking soda supplement)
GH – 7 (liquid calcium / mg supplement)
Fe – 0
Nitrate 1-2ppm
Phosphate – 0
Substrate – 95% fluorite (6 yrs old)

Dose with flourish and flourish iron and PMDD k-nitrate, k,mg, and very occasionally even fleet enema for phosphate since water in San Francisco has nothing in it. In fact, our water is so soft (both carbonate and mineral), I have trouble keeping shrimp without adding calcium.


Super thanks for any help!

Darren

[darren_in_the_marsh]

Question:

1.What nutrients (light spectrum?) are required for older leaves?
2.What nutrients (light spectrum?) often cause smaller node length?

Here is my dilemma:

Growth of my plants are clearly more bushy rather than tall almost as if I could draw a line about half way across my tank, and nothing will grow past that. Ludwigia and swords adhere eerily to this, hygrophilia less.

Growth is generally slower, probably the same biomass, just bushier. The problem, is that once a segment reaches this ‘mystical’ length, its stops growing and the algae sets in, often new growth starting from the nearby node. Its like the older leaves have stopped growing, especially the simple hygrophilia.

Any insights on why leaves stop growing several days after sprouting then just to whither away?

Tank specs:

29 gallon
2 x 55w PC (10k / 6700k)
night time only pressurized CO2 – pH 6.9
KH – 5 (baking soda supplement)
GH – 7 (liquid calcium / mg supplement)
Fe – 0
Nitrate 1-2ppm
Phosphate – 0
Substrate – 95% fluorite (6 yrs old)

Dose with flourish and flourish iron and PMDD k-nitrate, k,mg, and very occasionally even fleet enema for phosphate since water in San Francisco has nothing in it. In fact, our water is so soft (both carbonate and mineral), I have trouble keeping shrimp without adding calcium.


Super thanks for any help!

Darren

[imported_TPIRman]

Does your CO2 really run only at _night_? If so, there's one big problem right there. I figure that's a typo, though.

[Hawkeye]

1) You need to replace the 10K with another 6700K or a 9325K. 10K are for marine tanks.
2) increase Nitrate to 5 - 10ppm
3) increase Phosphate .2 - .5ppm

Use 8 to 10 hours of light to start off. You can all ways increase it up to 10 to 12 hours later.

Hawk

[gpodio]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
1) You need to replace the 10K with another 6700K or a 9325K. 10K are for marine tanks.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a strong statement there. I'm not excluding that lighting may be the cause of these problems but I have used 10K bulbs in the past and combined with other bulbs of lower kelvin have worked well for me. True we use lower kelvins in general but I'm not sure this setup would present much of a problem as far as light is concerned.

I never had this problem, actually if it weren't for the algae, getting bushier, more compact growth is usually a desired thing. The plants are nearly acting as if there is too much light... have you tried turning the 10K off for a week or two and seeing if that makes any difference? Besides that, all I can think of is nutrient levels that Hawk already pointed out, none of these should be hitting 0 and your CO2 should be running all the time or while the lights are on. I guess you may have to go by elimination to find out the cause, fix the obvious nutrient deficiencies (P,N,FE) first to exlude them as possible causes, then look at your lighting.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio

[Roger Miller]

I agree with Hawkeye that the 10K lamp is reef lighting. You can do much better for a planted tank, but Like Giancarlo I have no reason to believe that is actually causing your problem. When it comes to light, aquatic plants are gourmands, not gourmets. Until you reach the point of trying to show your tank to someone else lighting is largely a matter of personal taste. It stops being just a matter of personal taste when you try to show it to someone else; then it's better to have lighting that renders color accurately.

It sounds to me like your plants are getting to a certain height, then the new leaves at the end of the stem die without reaching full growth. After that the plant sprouts side shoots. The side shoots make the plant bushy. I don't think that's a lighting problem. It sounds like a deficiency or toxicity.

When you dose very soft water you need to be pretty careful about the proportions between the nutrients you are adding.

A few questions:

Do you know how much calcium your calcium+magnesium suppliment adds? Does it add anything else?

You mention adding potassium from potassium nitrate, then list K and Mg again as other things you're dosing. How much K and Mg are you dosing, and with what?

Are you adding Boron with anything you dose?

How big and how often are your water changes?


Roger Miller

[darren_in_the_marsh]

Thank you for the long responses, I truly appreciate the input. You would think after 6 years of keeping this same plant tank I would have figured it out; perhaps that is the draw to this hobby!

Some clarifications from my first post:

1. Co2 is only one during the day. Turned off by a solenoid at night.
2. fish: 3 sae, 3 amano shrimp, 3 chinese algae eaters, 1 oto, 1 neon
3. fluval 303 (not impressed, got it for free) and aquaclear 200
4. water changes 30% a week (love the python – built a water tower nearby to add chloramines remover and let water sit to reach room temp)
5. lights on for 13 hours.
6. Ca+ from a liquid form. Has been essential for the survival of shrimp, which I think could be some sort of assay here. They would latterly die or jump out within days of placing them in the tank. One I started supplementing with liquid Ca, they are molting and females gravid. Of course the harsh reaction also occurred when nitrates were at 40ppm (new LaMotte test kits)
7. I was dosing a lot of KSO4, KNO3 and with no uptake things got quite toxic. Since then I have literally stopped dosing, and changed hundreds of gallons and things have improved. On water changes – plants seem to like them.
8. I tried plantex for awhile, just seems to increase green spot algae.
9. current algae – mild green spot, although lethal to a leaf not growing, and now BBA. Ps- older golden Chinese algae eaters eat hair algae!

New solution:
1. decrease light duration to 8 hrs. (will leave current bulb arrangement) how about one bulb for 3 hours, 2 bulbs for 3 hours, 1 bulb for the remaining hour??
2. SLOWLY increase ferts. Still never had much luck with iron, seems always to benefit algae either applied once a week or over several days.

Other interesting notes:

1. my solenoid broke and I so ran co2 all night for several months, and when I installed a new one and returned the co2 to daytime only, the plants responded very positive!??? Would too a concentration of co2 too high in the water, not allow respiration at night to complete, or do plants not like constant acidic (pH 6. conditions?
2. 40ppm nitrate causes hair algae, and stunts plant growth and 0 nitrate causes green water!

Light issue: I changed to a JBJ 2 x 65W (1-10K and 1-6700K) about a year ago and I swear the tank looked like something out of a magazine, growth was unbelievable. I then waaaaaaay over pruned it. Pulled out heaps of plant biomass replanted it all perfect and then the problems started, seems like I shocked the system. I just replaced the 6700 with the 10k last week

This is really the only thing I that changed dramatically, and I believe points the finger at a nutrient balance issue. I believe there is a sweet spot, if you will, of a nutrient balance for each tank, and each one of us has to go through alone with our own tanks. What is working for someone else, may actually be bad for someone else’s.

CHEERS,
Darren

[Markw78]

I would guess its the light. Brighter lights tend to produce tigher nodes and shorter plants, they don't need to strech to compete for light as much.

Another thing you may want to consider, is the water column, and your water movement. Is it possible the lower half of the aquarium favors plants? Perhaps more CO2 and nutrients down there due to a lack of good water flow in the tank?

As for you all talking about light spectrum, it doesn't matter all that much. You may get a little bit faster growth with a lower tempature bulb, but unless your propgating for profit its not a big deal, plus they make your tank look yellow. The color temp of your light is 90% for your visual pleasure, though 20k's may be pushing it they are awfully blue. 5500K is a true daylight bulb.

I am VERY happy with my 10000K bulbs over my tank. 265 watts of 10K PC @ http://photos.yahoo.com/azuur_pdm

Just some thoughts

[Roger Miller]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Markw78:
The color temp of your light is 90% for your visual pleasure <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So the rest is only 10%? From your perspective it seems like the choice should be clear. Get rid of all those nasty plants, water, fish and things. Just leave the light on over an empty tank. That way you lose about 98% of the cost and inconvenience but still keep 90% of the visual pleasure

I don't think the 90% thing holds true for most of us. We seem to get more of our enjoyment from what's in the tank.


Roger Miller

[Markw78]

Ok let me rephrase

The plants will grow in 3000K light just as they would in 20k lights. They just may not grow at the same rate.

I have to cut my plants back quite often with 10k bulbs.

You focused way to much on the % that was just a random number to show the point.

To me an empty tank has 1% the pleasure, trust me I have 2 lol the 100% less cost is nice tho