turtlehead

Amano only has CO2 for the photoperiod and he turns it off at night. By lowering it or increasig, he means it depends on your fish and your plants. Each tank has a different demand and limit for CO2, I lower it if my fish are gasping and I increase it if I see bba or deficiencies from my plants. How much to lower or increase depends on you and your plant, kind of like the EI method.

hoppycalif

I didn't say I could get better results than Amano, no matter what I try. In fact I will say that it is very unlikely that I will ever approach Amano's results. What I did say is that we neophytes, who don't make a business of this, who are still learning, and who could always do a better maintenance job on our tanks, can get the best results if we try to keep the daytime concentration of CO2 in the range of 20 to 40 ppm, which is as accurate as we are likely to ever know it in any case. My goal is not to find Amano's magic methods, but to find a method that works for me, with my skills, my devotion to the maintenance, and my budget. I think most of us should try various ideas to see which we can make work the best, then use that.

essabee

Trying to get quick results is a heady intoxicant. If we can wait for it, I think we would get better results.

turtlehead

Well you really can't get quick results with CO2 in my opinion 1-2 days is quick and a couple hours is really quick.

Wheeler

Yes you did...

Hoppycailf said:
"I disagree with Amano, partly for the thrill of doing so, but mostly because I think we get the best results if we try for 30 ppm of CO2 in the water during the time the lights are on."

My mistake. You said you get the BEST results...

No matter what works for you, you should consider the intitial question. How can you say what's best, and then turn around and say the guy you're contradicting is far superior to you in skill. I swear I'm not trying to be combative, but you're trying to help someone wrap their head around Amano vs EI (Basically). Sounds a little biased to me... again, in the interest of discussion.

hoppycalif

Believe it or not, I said exactly what I meant. If that bothers you I'm sorry.

Wheeler

That's what I wanted to know. So, you can't retort? Yeah, it bothers me a *little*. EI is not the end all be all.

I won't participate in these forums as you have... for that, thank you so much. However, let me impress upon you, this:

People will listen to you. Folks who have the energy to guide the uninformed will guide the hobby in this country. It's not going well. The pics of average folks' tanks on forums from other countries FAR surpass ours, and, IMO, the main reason is not technology, or substrates, or any of that garbage. It's that fact that they aren't blinded by hype, or blowhard know-it-alls.

The last AGA contest was heart breaking to me. We're SO far behind... Time to catch up, or submit.

Burks

Not combative? Hah...that's a laugh.

I didn't know we were in competition to beat other countries. I thought this hobby was for FUN.

If there's such a big problem with the advice given on this forum, maybe you Mr. Wheeler should change that. That is if you can find time to stop picking hoppy's posts apart.

Wheeler

see PM Burks. Your argument is lame. The underdog or overposted will always recieve the favor on these forums. I understand that.

If this hobby was only for "fun", we'd not have a quarter of the posts that we do. For the MOST part, if you're motivated enough to ask a question or post an answer on the internet, you're interested in more knowledge or advancing the hobby... not "fun".

I'll happily discuss this with anyone. I think my argument is valid and, if you wish, start a new thread or send a PM. I'll find it.

I really only wanted to spur meaningfull conversation. Guess I did

erijnal

Excuse me, but logic doesn't amount to substance in some situations, and that's what's going on right here.

Foremost, if everything you're doing is in the interest of advancing the hobby, then why do your posts come off as aggressive, regardless of what you say? If you care about the hobby as much as you say you do, then I suggest you take the effort to appear so in how you present yourself.

Second, hoppy is giving his opinion based on experience, and admittedly, all opinions are open to disagreements. Notice, however, how hoppy said that he THINKS the best result can be achieved by so and so. I didn't read anything that said he KNEW how the best results were achieved. How you disagree says a lot about your character, and will also determine if people are going to listen to you.

Third, if hoppy really is pointing toward EI, then I'd say it's a really good place to start for any newbie. Since you seem to be basing "skill" on plant growth and aquascaping, anyone new to the hobby should first learn how to grow plants before they start dreaming up aquascape layouts. That said, how can you say it's not based on things like substrate or other materials needed in the planted aquarium? Sure, if you get far enough into the hobby (I'm stressing that bit), you can grow things on a lot of different mediums, but if you're just starting out, the only way you're going to have great results along with simplicity will come from having the right equipment.

Just curious, what are all these other forums you're talking about? If the average-looking tanks in those countries look so great, then why does the demographic distribution of the top 100 ADA contest entries suggest otherwise? I know it might be a long shot to say that every good aquascaper will enter the contest, but nevertheless, it's probably a good indicator. Also, why does it seem like a coincidence to me that Japan, Taiwan, and Hong Kong, which are listed as the top three in terms of appearance in the top 100, are all places where the fish trade is huge, and consumers will inevitably have access to more resources?

I played baseball and continued because it was fun. I played tennis and continued because it was fun. I built models and coninued because it was fun. If something isn't fun initially, what's the motivation in continuing it? Are you seriously saying that I'm only going to ask questions because I want to have more knowledge or advance the hobby? Sorry, this might come off as selfish, but I ask questions because I want my tank to look good, so I could have fun looking at it. If your MAIN motivation for continuing in your hobbies is something other than to have fun, then uh, that's just strange, and you'll ultimately become one of those "blow-hard know-it-alls" that don't enjoy the subject they know so much about.




In any case, Amano's advice seems strange to me because I distinctly remember him listing his nutrient concentrations in his tanks, and I think I remember it saying that the concentration was 0.1 mg/L, which is essentially 0.1 ppm. Does that mean Amano's own advice doesn't apply to himself? Because I'd say it's a safe bet that the presence of 0.1 ppm of CO2 won't do much to change the pH throughout the day, even with a practically nonexistent kH reading. Also, you have to keep in mind that the CO2 levels from the get-go have to be at an adequate level. After all, if you start out with no CO2 at all, and then reach a point where it's 5 ppm, then your pH should be lower, but at the same time, your plants may not be getting enough carbon. I think it's also valuable to mention that the water in Japan is very soft kH-wise.