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Old 01-23-2013, 12:34 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Default Re: The niko says high tech can't go a week with no maintenance thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by f1ea View Post
Yes. People may be scared from the nutrient release thing or think it's a flaw in a substrate. But it's a characteristic, not a flaw (and as Niko mentions it's not even being hidden or anything as it is addressed in detail by ADA). I had no problems at all with the nutrient release.
Yes agree.

I mean AS can be the easiest or the hardest substrate to deal with depending up who's using it. On one hand if you do your water changes, keep light duration short and don't disturb it, it's like the substrate for Dummies since the tank will pretty much run itself for 6-9 months, but if you don't do those things it's the substrate from hell (as depicted by many newbie tanks on the forums)
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:57 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Default Re: The niko says high tech can't go a week with no maintenance thread

You know, I think it's about time we nail it in our heads that in the world of planted tanks, as well as in the world in general, everything is a trade off. One great quality always comes with details that you need to 1. Know and 2. Know how to handle.

Today I talked to a friend of mine that knows a lot about industrial paints and coatings (epoxies, urethanes, etc). Guess what is the situation in that field? Very familiar: Every single high quality (hard coating, sticks to any substrate, UV-stable, you name it) comes with a "downside". The way you make your choice of coating depends on the use, exposure to sun, substrate properties, etc. You can NOT say that one is better than the other. Bottom line is - your choice is right ONLY IF you understand all the products very well.

In the world of planted tank we have a narrow view what is what. No matter how I personally feel about it and no matter that no professional uses EI this is what is popular in the USA. But most people do not have a clear understanding why chose EI over anything else other than "It works.", "It's easy.", "Everybody uses it.", "It's cheaper than ADA." etc. At some point Tom came up with "EI + AquaSoil". That's like saying "A Yugo with a Ferrari engine." Yes it will run. It will run fast. It will take you places. Noone can deny that but also most people can't deny they don't really know why they chose it. I know what I call that. What do you call it?


So the ADA substrates release Ammonia in the water? But not very many people care to know how that could be useful or actually desirable. And no, I don't care much about both ADA or if every plant head knows how their stuff works. But coming from a society where mediocrity was de facto a law I cannot help but be sensitive to it. Call it "stupidity", "being superficial", or "that's how it goes" - we can't deny it is not a good thing.

Once again - I write all these charged posts because I dislike the simplistic mindset. As I said recently "Do not try to paint a masterpiece on a sticky note." Everything in this life is about mindset - trying to know more and to see things in their entirety. I can go on to say that these two things are precious, not for everybody, and even carefully kept away from most people. But this post is not about that. Better focus the discussion on more details about how things work in planted tanks. Lo and behold 10 years from now everybody actually makes an educated choice how to approach their planted tank.

Last edited by niko; 01-23-2013 at 01:12 PM..
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:52 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Default Re: The niko says high tech can't go a week with no maintenance thread

I humbly submit art on post-it notes, for you Niko.

http://www.techeblog.com/elephant/ph...46768#prevnext
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Old 01-23-2013, 02:35 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Default Re: The niko says high tech can't go a week with no maintenance thread

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Originally Posted by TarantulaGuy View Post
I humbly submit art on post-it notes, for you Niko.

http://www.techeblog.com/elephant/ph...46768#prevnext
Those are great.


Quote:
Originally Posted by niko View Post
..At some point Tom came up with "EI + AquaSoil". That's like saying "A Yugo with a Ferrari engine.."
I actually look at it the other way around. I don't care what's under the hood as long as it looks and runs good.

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Old 01-23-2013, 04:04 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Default Re: The niko says high tech can't go a week with no maintenance thread

Yes those post-it notes are true pieces of art indeed! I will try to fit everything I do in a small scale now. Just wait and you will see me on the news one day!

And here's an even loftier goal:
http://peopleofar.wordpress.com/2012...-miniature-art

House,

My point is about people not knowing what options are out there. I recently talked to a guy that has used virtually all methods out there. But only because this or that tank would do best by using that exact method.

Among the other questions about EI one is very obviously invisible: Why if Tom's best amazing scientific EI that tells plants, algae, and people how to act folk still have plant growth and algae issues? EI covers all bases by design. It is supposed to be easy and cheap. Whatever. So with the "EI+AquaSoil" combo there should have been a revolution in this hobby. Instead what we see is the amateurs following EI/Tom and what not, and all professionals doing what ADA does.

Once again - this is not who's right who's wrong. Different strokes, different goals. Your tank is gorgeous but honestly for the plants that are in it EI is by far the most counter intuitive approach for it. Please don't get hot headed because that is not my goal here.

Actually my main intention is selfish - to learn more than I know at present. From this and some other newer threads I've learned a lot in the last few weeks. I wish Tom did not write in a barely comprehensible style, I wish ADA was not all about selling you crap, I wish there was a site where one could read in details about Dupla, Dutch tanks, PMDD, EI, the approach of adding ferts to the water that existed much before Tom decided he invented it, PPS, PPS-pro. But there isn't*. All we got is ourselves on a forum, and pieces of information all over. That's a good thing if you ask me.

* Naman, a Russian guy that used to post on APC some years ago has actually written such a document. But it does not cover all the approaches. It does get into minute details about ADA-EI-PPS in a scientific way outlining ADA as the best by far. The planted tank community in his own country pretty much ignores his work. There is no English translation.

Last edited by niko; 01-23-2013 at 04:18 PM..
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:06 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Default Re: The niko says high tech can't go a week with no maintenance thread

Here's some interesting information; First hand witness account on how ADA starts a new tank. Guy (probably one of the distributors) was at the gallery for some time and saw the following:

1. All new tanks are started with filters that are seeded already.
2. The tap water at the gallery has KH=2.
3. In the first few days (not clear how many) the lights are on only 3-4 hours a day.
4. In all tanks there is night time aeration. Using the Lily Pipe. He says something about dumping just enough water to get the Lily Pipe to aearate. Not very clear about that.
5. No ferts in the first weeek and a half. Only Green Bacter and Green Gain (1 drop/30-40 liters of volume)

There is also another guy that posted in this thread. He says that as a botanist he can say that plants really develop their roots if there is lack of nutrients in the water. Said that in reference to the first phases of development. But someone else reminded that a lot of the plants are Wabi-Kusa and the roots are already established. Either way - as we can see there is a lot of care for the plant's roots.

Link:
http://aquajournal.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=357
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:14 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Default Re: The niko says high tech can't go a week with no maintenance thread

Niko, I would never get hot-headed for an opinion you have, I only get 'passionate' about something when I know from experience that something isn't true, but it seems to be stated as so. I am curious though why you think EI is counterintuitive for the tank. Before you respond, take a good hard look at the setup.
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Old 01-23-2013, 07:35 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Default Re: The niko says high tech can't go a week with no maintenance thread

House,

I looked at the enlarged picture. There are ferns and mosses. I can't quite make up one plant on the right. Could be stargrass and then things change.

Here's my logic - it shows how I see a planted tank today: A tank with mosses and ferns does not suck a lot of nutrients. So keeping any excess is not needed. To ballance the tank on the safe side nutrients in the water need to be minimal. BUT! Java Fern looks spectacular with a little extra P. And mosses grow much faster under good light and with good CO2. Another "but" - with high light, CO2, and P all of these plants will have to be trimmed at least once a week if you want to keep a precise shape of everything. That is fine but trimming is a sensitive moment - one needs to remember that the living plant mass is being reduced. Which in turn reflects on the amount of nutrients being used (ferts and CO2). These are details too fine for most folk. And normaly nothing bad happens. But if the tank has excess N and P and CO2 every trimming is like tinkering with a system that can go bad very fast. But there is more chance compared to a lean one.

In defense of high N I think one can say that relatively more N has to be available when the light is low. As I understand in low light and low CO2 the plants need more N to "eat" Carbon. Once again - details too fine for most folk. But note that N needs to be more, not everything else too.

The above actually sums up why I believe that a tank with excess nutrients in the water cannot be left by itself for long - tank is unstable when compared to a lean water/rich gravel tank. Despite the original post here and the video I still think that the vast majority of people doing EI can't just leave the house and leave their tank be. We already discussed the practical side of being able to do that - not everyone cares about that.

A person that wants a tank that is manageable, keeps the planned shape for a long time, does not have an elevated risk of developing issues would say that EI for your tank is counter intuitive. Maybe here is the place to point out something that I believe most of us know but someone may find it to be a striking news - ADA tanks very much never have plants that require great amounts of ferts in the water. That's not an accident (nothing that ADA presents our eyes and ears with is an accident. Nothing. ADA is a kind of business that we cannot figure out easily like our homegrown outfits and it is constantly playing games with our minds despite what we think). So for tanks that have plants that like food in the water one has no choice but to add the food to the water. And that comes with a price - you better know what you are doing and have at least a bit of a "green thumb" or trouble is very much guaranteed at some point.

Now tell us what other plants you have in it that make EI the right choice.

Last edited by niko; 01-23-2013 at 07:41 PM..
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:35 AM   #119 (permalink)
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Default Re: The niko says high tech can't go a week with no maintenance thread

How about the long term setup. EI can go on for ages, where the rich substrate runs out eventually. What do people having an ADA (or similar) based tank do if they want to run it on the long term? Replace (parts) of the substrate (risking an ammonia peak), insert root tabs or anything?
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:24 AM   #120 (permalink)
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Default Re: The niko says high tech can't go a week with no maintenance thread

Niko thanks for that thorough analysis. I will address all, but I'm squeezed for time for now, but let me ask you one question. Let's assume I agree with everything you said about the setup. That the tank doesn't need the excess, etc, etc. Yet the tank is stable, ALL the plants grow great, the fish are colored-up, I have no algae issues. Then how can that be with all the excess in there? Why does the tank do fine, so either the plants are using the excess or the tank is fine with the excess in the WC. What is the downside?

BTW the plant in the back behind the focal point is Cypreus helfreri. Anyone that grows that plant know that you need 'clean water' or it becomes an algae magnet literally. What is your definition of clean water?
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