Agentkhiem

I have a 20" Satellite fixture, so I can't..

mats808

Hey guys,
I realize that adapting is different than preferring but.........

When a plant adapts to a certain habitat, eventually this becomes the type of habitat it prefers, right? Sometimes that species might eventually require this habitat, right? Now, after 50,000 years or so of living in this habitat and thriving with this 'green' light at what point does this become the type of light that it prefers? Are you guys saying never?

I understand that at first, plants may end up growing in these lower light habitats because there might be less competition.....but at some point I think this just becomes it's habitat. And if we assume that what Amano is saying about the whole green light in the forest thing is correct I would think that the green light becomes part of their habitat as well. Then I think that after thousands of years, eventually a plant might even prefer this 'green' light.

Just a few thougths. But it kind of seems logical, i think. What do you guys think?

aaron

Agentkhiem

Depends on if you believe/reject Micro or Macro evolution. But that's another topic of it's own

defdac

Can you grow your aquatic plants in high light?
Do they grow faster under high light?
Do they prefer lower light or high light?

Can you grow some species in low light that is green? Yes. Do they prefer it? No.

defdac

.. and yes. In a world designed to work exactly like you want to, like make believe, we can make believe green plants will adapt to only use green light.

But it's kindof pointless..

mats808

maybe you're right. But it amazes me that you are so positive that there is absolutely no way that you could be wrong.

First of all to answer some of your questions. Maybe it's just the way you write so I am misunderstanding you but it seems like you are implying that plants grow faster under high light and so they therefore prefer high light.

I don't think that all your assumptions are true. There are many plants that prefer low light and if grown under too high of a light they will eventually die. If they are able to adapt to this higher light some of these plants start growing weird. An example would be Bolbitis heudelotii. This is a plant that I believe is often grown with way too much light. True it does grow faster but the leaves get all contorted and crinkly looking and they don't lie flat. Before you say anything contrary please remember that the bottom line is that this is a low light plant that is found in very shady spots under the forest canopy. Actually you should try growing your Bolbitus with low light, I guarantee you that you'll be amazed. This plant is very pretty when grown in the dark. The leaves tend to be quite flat and nicely layered all facing parallel to the ground. It grows slower though but it's much prettier. Typical human nature though to take a plant that comes from the dark, grow it with bright light, not notice that it's growth form has changed (for the worse), only recognize that it grows a little faster, and assume that it prefers this.

I think that you are really underestimating the whole evolutionary process. Trees are plants. Some prefer colder weather some prefer warmer weather. Some can adapt to many climates, some can't. If you try to grow a Japanese Maple in the Sahara it will die. No matter how much water, fertilizer, etc. you give it. It will die. It will die because it's too hot. Plants adapt to a certain environment, eventually they require that environment. Temperature, soil, light, they are all part of the environment.

A lot of Cryptocorynes will die unless the soil/water is very acidic (pH4.5-5.0). They not only adapted to these conditions.....they now require it. Why do you think that light is so different?

defdac

Show me one aquatic plant that will die under sun light.

I grow Bolbitis under high light without distorsions, it seems to prefer it. The leaves in the darker regions get black, distorted and ugly:


Ofcourse, but that does not prove your point.

The plants we have in our aquariums all prefer higher light to a degree where most hobbyists can't provide enough.

I've seen the nicest Java ferns, moss, and Anubias grown directly under the strongest MH there is.

Chlorophyll is green. Green reflects green light, otherwise it wouldn't be green.

That proves my point.

defdac

To not own you too much I will reach out a hand and give you that the chlorophyll might evolve in a million years to become another color and thereby sensitive to other colors than blue and red.

You can wait until then and grow pink plants that uses green light.

Until then, let's see more green aquascapes =)

mats808

hey defdac,

First of all let me say that you grow really nice plants and I'm sure that you're really good at what you do. I just felt like you were attacking me when I was simply asking a question and we got off to the wrong foot.

I didn't really want to say this but part of the reason I brought the Bolbitis thing up is because I visited your 'blog' and I saw your Bolbitis. Notice how the ends of many of the leaves curl downward and the leaves have a somewhat ruffled look. The tips of your leaves are also all pointing toward the light or top of the tank. I believe that they are shielding themselves from the light and thus facing the least amount of surface area toward your light source which is primarily coming from above.

Granted this is personal preference but when grown in the 'dark':
1. it grows slower
2. the leaves are really pretty flat. No curled tips or undulation to the leaves
3. the leaves also face the light. As a result they kind of all grow parallel to the light source which comes from above forming a nice layered look (picture a deck of cards fanned out in your hand of course very sporadically). Really quite pretty.

Please understand that I'm not cutting down your culture in any way. In fact I see many/most Bolbitis grown this way. It's great because it grows so much faster. But just try growing it under much darker conditions. Just try. I think you'll like it.

The reason I know this is that I started growing Bolbitus around 1990ish thanks to a friend who introduced me to less common plants. I know Bolbitis is common now but it wasn't as popular in 1990. At that time I had no CO2. Not too many people were using CO2 back then compared to these days. I was taught to grow the plant in the 'dark' because that's how it grows in the wild. Also with really clean water so the 'pores' don't get all clogged. The plant grew how I stated above. Later after the 'Amano Revolution' I got a CO2 system (1995ish). I've grown Bolbitis in much brighter light with the addition of CO2 and fertilized (macro/micro) on a regular basis. You are right....it grew much faster. However the growth did change. Like I said this may be personal preference but I've grown it both ways and for myself I can tell you that I prefer its growth habit when grown under very low light conditions.

Now about the other thing, maybe Amano is wrong about the whole green light thing far below the forest canopy. All I said is that if we assume that he is right and there is mostly only green light available then it seems logical that plants that grow solely in these 'green light' environments have not only adapted to these conditions but after 50,000 or so years actually prefer these conditions.

mats808

I forgot to address one of your questions. Try growing Cryptocoryne bogneri in direct sunlight. It will die. I don't know where you live but I live in Hawaii. The sun gets pretty bright here. Not as bright as in the true tropics where many of these plants grow but still pretty bright. Actually many species of Cryptocoryne will die in direct sunlight if you live anywhere near the equator.