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Old 03-14-2010, 04:55 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plant Deficiency Diagram

I like the sensible answers from both of you Furthermore, sufficient fish load can provide adequate CO2 for plants in a NPT. Plants also are capable to utilize other carbon sources in the water and fish wastes, and I suspect some plants are more efficient than others to take advantage of the alternative carbon sources.

There is no question that CO2 deficiency is real, especially when the demand exceeds the supply. Slow growth, gangly branches, and yellow leaves are the symptoms I recently read from various sources. So yeah, yellow leaves would be similar to N deficiency.

Hi Neil, by saying “fine” I meant sustained, not too fast but healthy growth when a plant treated with organic fert in good soil as compared to a plant put exclusively on steroid a.ka. Miracle Grow

Wayne
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Old 03-15-2010, 03:21 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Re: Plant Deficiency Diagram

Thank you guys for your kind words!

I am a firm believer of constructive discussions rather than debates...here is an updated version based on your comments, feedbacks and suggestions.

We are making great progress here so let the dialogue continue.....cheers!

INFO GRAPHIC UPDATE:


Last edited by HeyPK; 02-27-2012 at 01:39 AM..
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Old 03-15-2010, 05:09 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plant Deficiency Diagram

This diagram is great and i like that you added CO2 as a consideration. Ruling it in or out as a diagnostic factor may not be as simple as you indicate.

Determining adequate CO2 levels thoughout the tank can be tricky and there can always be variation in concentration even with our best attempts with flow. When a "checker" (or pH +KH measurements ) senses CO2>30ppm, levels can be lower in the vicintiy of some plants, say where there is less circulation or farther from the point of CO2 injection. Also, there might not be CO2 deficiency at all, even if checker senses level < 30 (plants can get carbon from sediment or from HCO3... and not all plants can use bicarbs).

Other diagnostic checks:
what you know or believe are nutrient levels. For example, if you have reliably tested the water column and find that non-C nutrients are available(and in good proportions), then you can look to CO2/flow or light as a potential cause.

Not my area of expertise, there are also the issues of nutrient excess (toxicity), which may provide visual Q's or simply bad ratios (where one nutrient blocks the uptake of another).


Unfortunately, i dont have simple suggestions for you to implement.
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:14 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plant Deficiency Diagram

Very nice chart, the diagnostic flow chart is a great idea IMO.

I've got a few bits of my own to add, take what you will of it:

Drop checker minimum for me is 30ppm. I like to sit between 30-45ppm, given that toxicity starts in around 60-75ppm. I'm not sure if others feel this way, but that's become my outlook and I figure it was worth mentioning to see what the common consensus is.

It may be worth mentioning moving your drop checker to troubled areas of the tank. I recall on one occasion someone saying that their CO2 couldn't be deficient because it was yellow. I told them to move it over by the ground cover they were having trouble with, and it turned blue. IME the real effort of a planted tank is getting CO2 into the lower parts.

I think it's worth noting that you can get BBA (Audouinella spp.) developing just about everywhere in a tank if CO2 is limiting. I've had a needle wheel modded powerhead pushing directly onto leaves that BBA had taken a good foothold on when under limiting conditions. I had a bright yellow drop checker too. As it turns out, early morning sun at the right time of year was lighting up half the tank.

It'd be worth working in something about mmol PAR because of cases such as this. Your CO2 can be complete perfection, but too much light is always too much light.

Lower leaf shed on stems is possibly worth mentioning; there may be no structural issues to see because the leaves are actually dropping right off the plant.

nfrank is bringing up a good point with toxicity. Column levels of nutrient toxicity are very unlikely; Hoagland stock solutions used in many scientific experiments are 10x EI dosing in the same sort of parameters. There's no point dosing this much, and it will kill the fish while the plants are still happy. Your first symptom of fertilizer OD tends to be dead fish. This is not the only way to poison your plants though. Various plant dips aren't so nice to the plants either, some medications will kill plants while the fish are still fine, some fish can stand brackish conditions where the Na destroys certain plants. Major cases of toxicity can show different symptoms, but in almost every case they end up acting far faster than a nutrient deficiency. For more mild/prolonged cases it tends to be something added repeatedly to the tank.

Last edited by Philosophos; 03-15-2010 at 07:30 AM..
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:01 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plant Deficiency Diagram

Quote:
Column levels of nutrient toxicity are very unlikely; Hoagland stock solutions used in many scientific experiments are 10x EI dosing in the same sort of parameters.
Toxicity can also come from the sediment. This situation may be of interest to followers of "the natural aquarium," aka "El Natural" here on APC. Soil based sediments can create a wide variety of plant toxicities, particularly if lots of water changes are not done (as suggested) during the initial setup. Some of these toxicities can create a nutrient imbalace for the plant which are not toxic to the fishes. I recall Diana talking about zinc toxicity and it may even be covered in her book.
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:06 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plant Deficiency Diagram

Very nice. Changing "30 ppm" to "non-limiting" CO2 may be the answer to some of this, hariom.

For Philosophos's points about water flow, could the flow chart have a step that asks if there's proper water flow by the plant? Only an idea.

nfrank,

It is - p12 of Walstad. But the entirety of Chapter 2 "Plants as Water Purifiers" is probably relevant here.

Last edited by wet; 03-15-2010 at 09:42 AM.. Reason: rephrased a request/suggestion
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:58 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plant Deficiency Diagram

Sorry, hariom. I just noticed the grey box with the exclamation point.
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Old 07-01-2010, 04:53 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plant Deficiency Diagram

Maybe include GSA and BBA as an indicator of CO2 deficiency and a short plant list of CO2 dependent plants. The chart recognizes CO2 deficiency thats the main thing. Great Job!

Last edited by tug; 07-01-2010 at 05:03 PM..
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:18 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plant Deficiency Diagram

I have a lot of doubts about the symptoms listed for CO2 deficiencies. They all resemble nutrient deficiencies. for example, the "twisted pale or stunted new growth" could be calcium or boron deficiencies or even severe iron deficiency. The old growth symptom, holes developing, could be potassium deficiency. The BBA developing on older leaves isn't going to happen if you don't have BBA in your tank, and, hopefully, you don't. I don't. Is it a sure thing that BBA doesn't grow when CO2 is sufficient?

I have seen that Hygrophila polysperma is a good indicator of CO2 levels. It does not show the symptoms described above, but it does show very clearly, high, middle, and low CO2 as shown in the drawings below:




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Old 08-25-2010, 01:50 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Plant Deficiency Diagram

Any new updates to this? great work, and good illustration!
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