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Ludwigia repens 'rubin'? or another hybrid?

16K views 34 replies 10 participants last post by  miremonster 
#1 ·
Not too sure if this should go to the plant ID or here. Anyway, L. repens 'rubin' or another hybrid. Possible cross with palustris? Possibly variants due to environmental conditions. These grow slower than your normal Ludwigia species but holds its color very well. Grown in low,med,and high light conditions without turning green. Intense red color shown best under high light.

Submerge photos (leaves are much more narrow than repens)



Emerged (again, more narrow and color difference)


 
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#5 ·
These plants came from asia. From which country exactly? Not too sure. What I understand is that they were from a friend of a friend. As far as trade name, they were calling it Ludwigia species red. Very generic. I swear that I did see petals on them before but I checked back and found none. I am hoping to see if I can get a photo of them with petals and will post them up. Do you have photos of your 'rubin'? I hope you do so that I can compare these specimens.
 
#6 ·
OK, thank You; I'll look after my "Rubin" pics and post them.
Petals => at least it's not Ludwigia palustris. But this "Ludwigia species red" likely belongs to the same Ludwigia section (Dantia = Isnardia) because of its opposite leaves. The species and hybrids of Sect. Dantia are originally native of the Americas only.
 
#7 ·
According to Peng et al, L. palustris is most likely native to Eurasia, being "present in several widely separated areas of Europe as early as 1666." It may have dispersed to Europe in the recent past, but is not likely introduced. See:

Peng, et al (2005). Systematics and Evolution of Ludwigia Section Dantia (Onagraceae). Annals of the Missouri Botanical Garden , 92, 307-359.

As far as I know, that is still available for free online, though you do have to jump through some virtual hoops to get it. I'll come back with the link/instructions for anyone interested. It's really very good.

As far as the plant in question here goes, I do remember seeing a photo of a flowering specimen with petals. It really looks more like L. palustris otherwise, so I'm not sure what to say. Isn't the 'Rubin' supposed to be originally from Central America? The given range of L. repens doesn't extend any farther south that central Mexico. I suppose it could be a hybrid, perhaps between L. palustris and something else. With some good specimens and perhaps fresh material, I should be able to get an answer eventually.
 
#9 ·
Knowing its origin would really help. I remember seeing mention that it is related to L. glandulosa somehow, but it would have to be from the US for that to be, I'd think; members of section Microcarpium (including L. glandulosa) are almost entirely limited to the US, with a few in the Bahamas, Canada and Mexico (one place as a disjunct population).

We have a plant that HeyPK collected in Mississippi that really looks like a cross between L. glandulosa and L. palustris. It has opposite leaves, which is somewhat surprising since intersectional hybrids are supposed to - usually at least - have alternate leaves. Different parental combinations could produce opposite-leaved plants? Rubin may be a cross with another Ludwigia entirely? ???
 
#10 ·
I keep wondering about the cladistics of Ludwigia.

Something seems extremely variable about many of them. L. inclinata in its myriad incarnations for example.

I know very little about hybrids. I feel like a cross between, say, (L. repens and L. palustris) crossed again with (L. palustris) might create something that looks like that. I am certain that it is a part of this 'Dantia' group, leastaways.

Taxonomy is fun! SOMEONE SEQUENCE THE GENES AND GIVE US AN ANSWER!

Cavan, you should PM me some links to these articles and annals you post. I would like to know more.
 
#11 ·
I'll see if I can find out how people can get access to them who can't right now. There are a few papers made by specialists at the Missouri Botanical Garden that are excellent, to say the least.

Dantia is a section of Ludwigia (a bit less than a sub genus) that includes palustris, repens, arcuata, brevipes and spathulata, the last one being a rare species of restricted range; as far as I know, nobody has ever tried it.

L. inclinata is in its own section, Heterophylla.

Intersectional hybrids exist; there is a population in Alabama of a hybrid of L. arcuata and L. pilosa. Sterile, not surprisingly, but I'd really like to get my hands on it! I was going to try creating a hybrid of L. inclinata and L. palustris, but I couldn't get them to flower at the same time. Bummer. Next time, maybe.
 
#13 ·
#17 ·
Wow, thank you, those are superb!

I *love* Ludwigia. I am attempting to collect as many as possible. I have a few weird ones now that I didn't have a few years ago but am always looking for more, and as a result, more information.
 
#27 · (Edited)
The Ludwigia "Red" or "Super Red" or however named, is labeled Ludwigia palustris (035B) by Tropica now. Formerly Ludwigia sp.
http://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/Ludwigiapalustris(035B)/4453
Couldn't find out yet what the labeling is based on.
Cavan wrote that this Ludwigia is very different from familiar North American L. palustris. I mean, even if 035B belongs to L. palustris, it would be good to add a cultivar or commercial name to the scientific name (e.g. 'Super Red') to mark this particular strain.
However I don't know how e.g. European L. palustris populations differ from N American ones. Maybe the 035B is an Old World L. palustris?
 
#29 ·
I think we need to be cautious if we identify different species by the density of the red pigment. 'It has been my past experience that the light spectrum and intensity which a plant has bee exposed to especially long term can have an effect on the red pigment density.
 
#31 ·
The 'Red' has apparently more intense red colour than previously known L. palustris - under same conditions. Maybe that still has to be demonstrated by growing them side by side, because of the mentioned dependence of the pigment density on light etc. But that distinction isn't a taxonomical one, it's rather in the field of "cultonomy".

I haven't found dry fruits with obviously mature seeds on emersed "Red" / "Super Red" yet. Sowing would be interesting to find out if the seeds are germinable, and if so, whether the seedlings look uniform or diverse.
 
#33 ·
The 'red' has a smaller stature and more compact growth habit. Normal palustris is much weedier;
OK; I wasn't aware of that. The plant that I knew as Ludwigia palustris was of unknown origin, it branched well and had similarly small leaves, but if I remember correctly, more elongate leaf shape than the "Red" and a lighter, nice orange-red colour. Stupidly I've lost it years ago. I wonder if that was different from normal North American L. palustris... no idea.
 
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