Elkmor

Currently I'm using TMG with addition of boron.
R/O water, weekly 50% changes, pure gravel.

But I'm not so satisfied with plants growth, and want to switch to Flourish or CSM, or CSM+B, or Flourish + Flourish Iron.

What is the best micros fertilizer for R/O water?

Edward

Hi Elkmor

Trace Elements are not difficult to dose. Plants can take thousand times more then they actually need for healthy growth therefore the concentrations are very flexible. A few points to keep in mind;

Use only balanced TE product. TE product must supply Mn, Fe, Zn, Cu, B and Mo. Anything else is pointless.

Do not mix. Using more TE products at the same time doesn’t make sense. The product is either complete or don’t use it. Keep it simple.

Do not add extra elements. Adding extra Fe or Zn into balanced TE product usually does not work. The same applies to other elements. The ratio is there for a reason. More is not better.

Dose as recommended at first. Recommended dosage is usually right. High intensity light or harder water requires more TE, but it should be decided after all the other variables prove to be in proper levels.

Search for deficiencies elsewhere first. Make sure there is enough light, Ca, Mg, NO3, PO4, K and then start experimenting with more TE. Some people proved Fe dosage of 0.01 ppm a day sufficient under very strong light and also under direct sun light outside.





Thank you
Edward

Elkmor

Thanks for advice, Edward.

I'd like to know do you personally use CSM+B only, or make some DIY ferts?

Here, at our forum in Russia we found that adding boron to Flourish or TMG can really solve problem of stunted growth and curly leafs, so I don't understand why don't add extra elements... it works.

Edward

Hi Elkmor
If mixing trace element products proves to be beneficial then the product is not balanced properly. It may work with water changes otherwise I wouldn’t use it avoiding possible accumulation of other element overdose.

The trace element product I use is the basic one used by the industry.



Plant-Prod® Chelated Micronutrient Mix
Chelated Micronutrient Mix is a water soluble micronutrient mix which can be used as a supplement where deficiencies exist for crops grown in soil or in a regular feeding program for crops grown in artificial and soilless media. Its high solubility makes it suitable for foliar applications to woody and herbaceous plants.

General Applications
1. Regular Feeding Program for Soilless Mixes or
Substrates: Use 3 g/100 L. For injector systems this can be maintained by using 6 g/L for a 1:200 injector or 3 g/L for a 1:100 injector ratio. For Agriculture Crops and Soil Grown Greenhouse Crops: Apply when soil test show low levels of trace elements.

2. To Correct Deficiencies: The rate and frequency of application should be based on results from soil and plant tissue analysis.

Foliar Spray: Apply 35 g/100 L covering surface lightly. Make one or two applications as necessary. Soil Application: Always apply trace elements to moist soil. Use 120 g/100 m2 in 450 L of water.

Item 21120. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 kg
Item 21125. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 kg


Guaranteed Analysis

Manganese (Mn)* 2.0%
Iron (Fe)* 7.0%
Zinc (Zn)* 0.4%
Copper (Cu)* 0.1%
Boron (B) 1.3%
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.06%

* Chelated
Chelating agent - 42% Ethylene diamine tetraacetate
13% Diethylene triamine pentaacetate

Salt

Just to point out some additional info...

Plant Products (http://www.plantprod.com) makes CSM.

The product Edward is using is NOT CSM. Greg Watson sells Plant Products CSM to which he himself adds boric acid (I would guess Plant Products brand boric acid).

Edward is using a Plant Products product called CMM.

The main difference between CSM and CMM is CMM comes with 1.3% boron but not magnesium. CSM replaces the 1.3% boron with 1.5% magnesium. All other micronutrient concentrations are the same.

To me it looks like the benefit with PPS is that we like to dose magnesium separately, so CMM gets magnesium out of the trace mix. It also makes adding boron to the mix unnecessary, which I personally think is better than altering a product (adding boric acid to CSM).

Greg Watson probably goes with the CSM because it includes magnesium. He would do better (IMHO) to sell CMM and simply point out that it doesn't contain magnesium, so you would want to dose magnesium sulfate separately if your water is low or doesn't have any magnesium in it. (After all, he sells magnesium sulfate in his online store.)

(My personal issue with using Plantex products is that these products are designed for use in soil or soilless media, as stated in the Plant Products PDF's. They may work OK in aquariums, but I prefer a product that's actually been formulated and tested to work in aquariums (Tropica Master Grow or Flourish). Flourish also contains vitamins and amino acids.)

Edward, it would help users if you provided some tips, info, or a link on where one can purchase CMM. For example, Froogle returns zero results when searching for it (example here or here).

Plant Products PDF's:

Plant Products CSM
Plant Products CMM (third page)

Edward

Very good information Salt, Thank you. The Trace Element issue hasn’t been stresses enough in the past. The product Greg is supplying is old and out of date. It was designed for soil grown vegetables. We know there is a better, more complete product used by the industry for growing in artificial and soilless applications, the Micronutrient Mix by Plant Product. In other words, for aquariums.

We should ask Greg Watson if he could add this product to his inventory for the PPS fertilization system users.


Thank you
Edward

gregwatson

Edward makes a fair point... but I would like to correct a modest inaccuracy in what he wrote. Both products are identical with the exception of the fact that one contains boron and one contains magnesium. In all other regards, they are exactly the same. Both contain the exact same ratios of all other ingredients, both utilize the exact same chelators ...

The CMM product is not currently licensed to be sold in the United States and is actually the Canadian version of the product that Plant Product sells in the US. The CSM product is the US/International version and is only sold by Plant Products in the US and Internationally ...

So if you are in Canada, you can buy CMM from Plant Products, but not CSM. Similarly, if you are in the US, you can by CSM from Plant Products, but you can not buy CMM ...

<grin> ... so there is nothing old or outdated about the US version of the product <grin> ... I am assuming Edward will edit that part out of his post <grin> ...

Edward also wrote that the CMM was designed for aquariums <grin> ... if you read the Plant Product specs, you will see that it was designed for "agricultural crops and soil grown greenhouse crops" and its only utilization instructions are for foilar spray ... personally, I think the foliar spray concept is close enough to water column dosing for me <grin> ...

As a hobby ... we have been drawn to the this particular brand of products primarily because it is one of the micronutrient trace mixes that contains one of the lower concentrations of chelate copper. There are many chelated micro nutrient trace mixes on the market, but most contain substantially higher levels of copper ...

Greg

Salt

Bah, how dumb... why on earth couldn't the product be sold in the USA? Sounds like just the kind of stupid regulation and/or company policy that is only good for screwing over customers...

Edward

According to the market plant requirements differ from country to country. It is difficult to understand why grass at Niagara Falls New York needs another fertilizer then grass at Niagara Falls Ontario. Nevertheless, here is the solution.


The Plant Product Chelated Micronutrient Mix proved to be very good for growing aquatic plants.
2.0 % Mn
7.0 % Fe
0.4 % Zn
0.1 % Cu
1.3 % B
0.06 % Mo
0.0 % Mg
Canadian distributor


The same company Plant Product manufactures chelated Turf Micronutrient Mix for the USA market that is identical to the above, plus it comes with some Mg.
2.0 % Mn
7.0 % Fe
0.4 % Zn
0.1 % Cu
1.3 % B
0.06 % Mo
2.9 % Mg
List of US distributors



Thank you
Edward


(Just for your information, in 1997 the PMDD time, the Plantex CSM did not have Boron in it so the “CSM+B” was the only solution at that time)

MWR

Is Plant-Prod Chelated Micronutrient Mix available in the USA? If so where can I purchase it? Thanks in advance.
Michael