Go Back   Aquatic Plant Central > Special Interest Forums > Fertilizing > PPS Analysis and Feedback
User Name
Password

Advertise on APC

PPS Analysis and Feedback Please use this forum to submit your PPS information for analysis, provide feedback and seek assistance from our experts. When you start a new thread, please complete the pre-defined questions that will appear.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-07-2005, 05:02 AM   #1
fish7days
Senior Member
 
fish7days's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 233
iTrader Ratings: 0
fish7days is a valuable member of the communityfish7days is a valuable member of the community
Plant Points: 3850
Default


Hi Edward,

Please forgive me for barging in on a topic.

I'm setting up the same aquarium. I have Flourite as a substrate though and 2 x 55W AH Supply CF's at 5500K. I will be running pressurized CO2 with a controller. Could you please suggest modifications to the above as well as your suggested photoperiod.

Thanks

André

fish7days is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2005, 05:19 AM   #2
Edward
Moderator
 
Edward's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: at home
Posts: 1,985
iTrader Ratings: 0
Edward is a valuable member of the communityEdward is a valuable member of the community
Plant Points: 99405
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish7days
Hi Edward,

Please forgive me for barging in on a topic.

I'm setting up the same aquarium. I have Flourite as a substrate though and 2 x 55W AH Supply CF's at 5500K. I will be running pressurized CO2 with a controller. Could you please suggest modifications to the above as well as your suggested photoperiod.

Thanks

André
Hi fish7days
No problem, any time. I assume your aquarium is 50gall or 200 liters and you use RO de-mineralized water. Is this correct? The usual and most common photoperiod is about 10 hours of continuous lighting.

Thank you
Edward
Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2005, 05:39 PM   #3
fish7days
Senior Member
 
fish7days's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 233
iTrader Ratings: 0
fish7days is a valuable member of the communityfish7days is a valuable member of the community
Plant Points: 3850
Default

Hey Edward,

No, using regular tap water that I filter through a small Sears cannister/cartridge filter to remove chlorine. So much so that I can put it straight in, without having to use a dechlorinator and my Cardinals and Rasboras are always fine. I'll run tests on my (filtered) tap water next time I do a water change and post the results. I suspect the hardness to be low, as my red Ramshorn snails do not do too well with their shell quality?

I have read your articles a few times today, and I want to try my 55gal with your method. Could you please give me an indication of what you think I'll need for initial inventory of dry chemicals for say 6 months or so. I want to avoid buying pounds and end up using grams...... I have made some notes as I read but just want to double check.

Thanks a million for your help !!

André
fish7days is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2005, 06:26 PM   #4
Edward
Moderator
 
Edward's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: at home
Posts: 1,985
iTrader Ratings: 0
Edward is a valuable member of the communityEdward is a valuable member of the community
Plant Points: 99405
Default

Hi fish7days
The carbon filtration of tap water works well on removing chlorine. I do it the same way.
You will need K2SO4, KNO3, KH2PO4, MgSO4 and TE. Find four 500ml bottles and mix the following solutions.

Standard Solution (SS)
KNO3 - 20 g
KH2PO4 - 6 g
K2SO4 - 16 g
In 500ml of water

Phosphate Free (PF)
KNO3 - 20 g
KH2PO4 - 0 g
K2SO4 - 20 g
In 500ml of water

Mg Solution (Mg)
MgSO4 - 169 g
In 500ml

Trace Element Solution (TE)
CSM+B - 24 g
In 500ml of water


Dose daily 3 ml SS, 6 ml PF, 1 ml Mg and 1 ml TE. Test your tap for NO3 and PO4. Also test your aquarium water for NO3 and PO4 and then after a week and post your results. Then we can take it from there.

Thank you
Edward
Attached Files
File Type: pdf The.PPS.Dosing.Calculator.for.aquatic.plants.50gall.pdf (11.8 KB, 48 views)

Last edited by Edward : 08-15-2005 at 09:00 AM.
Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2005, 03:29 PM   #5
fish7days
Senior Member
 
fish7days's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 233
iTrader Ratings: 0
fish7days is a valuable member of the communityfish7days is a valuable member of the community
Plant Points: 3850
Default

Hi Edward,

I tested some filtered tap water today and the results are:

pH 6.4
KH Less than 10 ppm
GH Less than 20 ppm
TDS 50 ppm
NO3 0
PO4 5 ppm

Should I keep your suggested regimen as a starting point or do you suggest any changes. I'm assuming I should raise the KH to 3 or 4 degrees to be able to get CO2 to approx 30 ppm.

I should have my CO2 equipment soon, and expect to be up and running shortly afterwards.

Thanks

André
fish7days is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2005, 05:32 PM   #6
Edward
Moderator
 
Edward's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: at home
Posts: 1,985
iTrader Ratings: 0
Edward is a valuable member of the communityEdward is a valuable member of the community
Plant Points: 99405
Default

Hi fish7days
You got interesting water over there. The very low KH is ok unless you want to keep pH higher. About 5 – 6 pH would be fine. Use little baking soda if it gets bellow that. Higher KH doesn’t have more CO2. The low GH is great too, all plants will love it.
What is not good is the PO4. Can you try testing the PO4 again? The 5 ppm PO4 is not usual; however, we can make it working just fine. If your aquarium water PO4 is high then you need to be dosing 0 ml SS, 9 ml PF, 1 ml Mg and 1 ml TE. Also measure your aquarium levels. What substrate do you have?

Thank you
Edward
Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 05:31 PM   #7
Edward
Moderator
 
Edward's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: at home
Posts: 1,985
iTrader Ratings: 0
Edward is a valuable member of the communityEdward is a valuable member of the community
Plant Points: 99405
Default

This FAQ may be helpful
FAQ.PPS.pdf or FAQ.PPS.doc
Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 06:36 PM   #8
plantbrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: the Swamp
Posts: 2,069
iTrader Ratings: 1
iTrader Positive Rating: 100%
plantbrain is a regular member
Plant Points: 4100
Default

Yes, those are helpful and simplied Edward.
Good work. Tables for each tank size is nice also.

You can use the SS, PS, TE, GH or Mg, the same manner as EI dosing with TE and the teaspoon method for the dry ferts(seaChem EQ, KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4).

FYI, this was done a decade ago:

http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/barr_02_01.shtml

Using the same fertilizer, dosing and using test kits and ranges for the most part. Some made liquid ferts and dosed mls, if they use fleet enema, they will also for the PO4. Targets individual tank's needs with test kits, Lamott and Hach in our cases in the Bay area to a range just like PPS.

Adding mls is better/more accurate, if you can get folks to make the liquids, few have the scales to weigh the fertilizers. But it makes dosing easier once they do that. PMDD folks did a very similar thing to my suggestions using the LRLP and they all used a liquid mls per day to dose.

I'm not sure the accuracy is really needed though(something I've argued previously about).

I could easily argue that even the best cheapy test kit is merely a guess within a range since the reference is also just a guess. You'd still be off by a little ppm without a more accurate test method.

I have a scale that is 0.1milligram accurate and high purity DI water, very accurate microliter measurement for the water volume as well as a nice colorimeter accurate to 0.01ppm NO3, PO4 etc and the ability to test all the plant nutrients not just the proxy for the trace, Fe which is a mess to rest anyway.

Compared to that type of testing, the AP, SeaChem and other kits are 500X less accurate or worse. You'd be guessing much more compared to EI and the range maintenance of PPS or RLRP or PMDD.

But............do we need that type of accuracy to grow plants?
No. So how accurate is good enough?

Same deal with the next step, EI, that used a pre existing hobbyists habit, the water change. Folks seem better about doing that than the testing from all the years I've helped folks.

It's less accurate than PPS/Testing, but you can easily do it and as you learn to tweak with kits, you can also learn tweak without them.

Today I am more interested in modeling, accuracy of various dosing routines.
How close do we need to be to hit the level that is acceptable and how well can those be predicted. Upper ranges of nutrients are also something not explored in a controlled isolated manner.

You may consider adding Fleet enema, SeaChem EQ etc to some of these PPS solution's to get equivalent concentrations.

That will give folks some more flexibility of the fertilizers they use.
But KH2PO4 is widely available these days as is MgSO4. CaCl2 and CaSO4 less so.

SeaChem EQ is CaSO4/MgSO4/FeSO4/MnSO4.
I'm not as keen on the CaCl2, I do not like it in the softer water.
I can be more liberal with the CaSO4, even though it's solutibility is lower.

While some seem to forget I suggested testing many years ago, I suggested EI since when helping folks on the web with limited resources, unwillingness to test, $$$, product availability and other barriers, that became an issue for many. You need to be creative to solve some problems.

Cheapy kits and making standards does work, if the folks actually make them and saves some $, but like a nice car etc, I like nice test kits.

I'd certainly mention 20x about the importance of CO2(or not if they go non CO2). People have more trouble with that and it's effect on nutrient uptake rates than anything else.

They will unfairly judge PPS or any routine if they don't do that correctly.
The solution standards and tables will go a long way to making this a better system and easier to apply much like PMDD except better and up to date. You added some flexibilty to it and this is a key thing. Not everyone will apply it the way you intended


Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 07:19 PM   #9
fish7days
Senior Member
 
fish7days's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 233
iTrader Ratings: 0
fish7days is a valuable member of the communityfish7days is a valuable member of the community
Plant Points: 3850
Default

Nice post Tom, and thanks for the insight. I for one, am not as in love as many, with water changes and will much rather prefer to tinker with solutions, standards and test kits. Pretty easy to suck some solution up in a syringe rather than carrying a bucket of water across the house!

Having said that, Edward, I tore the 55 gal down in it's entirety this weekend and have it back up and running. I also installed a controller, and after having calibrated it, now have a better handle on pH. I also tested for PO4 with double volume of water and with this resolution see a different result. Lastly, I added Baking Soda to raise KH. Results now are as follows:

pH 7.3
KH 5
GH Less than 10ppm
PO4 1 to 2 ppm but not 5 as previously tested.
NO3 0
TDS 210

I will fill the new CO2 tank and set that up soon. I'm hoping to achieve a pH of 6.7 at a KH of 5 which should get me 30ppm of CO2 once I inject, but that may take some tuning for a while.

So, at this point, should I still shoot for 3 ml SS, 6 ml PF, 12 drops Mg, 12 drops TE ?

One more question, can I use the 75gal 3wpg spreadsheet as is for a 55gal 2wpg?

Thanks so much for your time and effort !!

André
fish7days is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2005, 09:33 AM   #10
fish7days
Senior Member
 
fish7days's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 233
iTrader Ratings: 0
fish7days is a valuable member of the communityfish7days is a valuable member of the community
Plant Points: 3850
Default

Hey Edward,

These are the results today after running for two weeks, and before dosing today's ferts. I have a lot of green spot algae, but otherwise everything else seems to be OK. From what I have read so far, should I try and raise the PO4 to maybe 2ppm for the spot algae?

Thanks

André

Last edited by fish7days : 10-07-2005 at 06:27 PM.
fish7days is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Aquatic Plant Central > Special Interest Forums > Fertilizing > PPS Analysis and Feedback > fish7days PPS Feedback Forum

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Aquatic Plant Forum Replies Last Post
PPS dosing: resolution felis Fertilizing 5 07-12-2005 07:23 AM
my dosing schedule turtlehead Fertilizing 9 02-12-2005 11:29 PM
help with dosing dry ferts!!! jdigiorgio Fertilizing 1 01-01-2005 11:06 AM
Calcium and Magnesium Dosing schedule?? MantisX Fertilizing 4 10-18-2004 05:51 PM
Dosing shcedule for 125g tank bharada Fertilizing 7 09-04-2004 06:32 PM

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:28 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.


Copyright © 2006 - 2008 Aquatic Plant Central | About Aquatic Plant Central | Legal | A member of the Crowdgather Forum Community
Created by Blue Moose Designs
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=