canders

Hello Seachem. Had a problem last week resulting in killing off all the Apisto's in my tank. A few neons and Otocinclus and snails were fine. I did an unusually large water change, about 50%, and put in the usual amount of Flourish Excel, a bit of Flora Pride 0/0/3, and some water conditioner Sera makes. Used Excel and the fertilizer before with no problems, I think this might have been the first time I used all three together. Woke up the next morning with the tank looking red under CF lights and dead fish, but then on changing the water the water had a greenish hue in the white sink. The bottle of Excel was the last few ml used, perhaps highly concentrated? Some reaction with the iron reduction process? Bizarre.

Seachem

Hi canders. We are so sorry to hear about the loss of your Apistogrammas. As hobbyists and animal lovers ourselves, we at Seachem know how easy it is to get attached to these animals.

Please allow us to try and troubleshoot this issue with you. Flourish Excel should not be any more concentrated at the bottom of the bottle than it is throughout the rest of the bottle. If this were the case, then we would suggest shaking the bottle prior to use, so I don't think that this should have been the root of the problem.

Because both Flourish Excel and the water conditioner are reducing agents, then it may have been a culmination of using the two in conjunction with one another. (This is rare, but there is potential for the reduction of oxygen to occur.) If you could answer a couple of questions, then we may be better able to determine why this occurred. What size tank do you have? You said that you dosed the Excel after a major water change; I would assume, then, that you dosed 1 capful for every 10 gallons, rather than 1 cap per every 50 gallons, is this correct? How much water conditioner did you use?

Perhaps for some reason your Apistos were simply more sensitive to whatever occurred than were your other fish and invertebrates. Did you notice them acting strangely immediately after dosing? Hopefully, we can try and determine the cause of this, so as to avoid it in the future. Thank you for taking the time to answer the above questions.

canders

Its a 20 gallon planted tank, no CO2 yet, Aquaclear filter HOB,Coralife compact fluorescent fixture. Some vallisneria, myrophyllium, plenty of java moss. Piece of that Amazon wood. The substrate is the ADA aquasoil ordered online, that may have something to do with it. The tank had been going 6-8 months no problem except algae control with a somewhat overstocked apisto family.

I have used Excel before and add a capful on major water changes, along with the K supplement (1/2cap). Never a problem before. This may be the first time I used the Sera Aquatan... conditioner concurrently with Excel and K.

The fish were dead in the morning when I looked and the tank had a distinct red haze, that I initially thought was my bulb gone crazy. Then I realized it was the water. The remaining large Apisto was looking very distressed, but the Neon was fine. The Oto was zipping around more than usual. Did another 50% water change, some activated carbon, the redness was reduced, but no luck saving the big guy.

Thats all I can think of. Maybe some reaction with iron in the aquasoil? Reaction with K? I did not even vacuum the substrate, just changed water. The water was heated and aerated in a plastic bin for a week. Temperature in the tank might have been warm 83, 84, the new water a few degrees cooler. No strange chemicals or cleaners used around the house. Well, besides alcohol for personal consumption, of course. No new fish or plants. Hmmmm.

Stumped.

Zapins

Subscribed.

Aquaticom

If I were you, I would stagger the addition of all those mixture of chemicals instead of dumping them all at once right after a water change.

Zapins

Since most water conditioners remove chlorine and produce ammonia as a result, perhaps the gluteraldehyde reacted with the ammonia and reduced the O2 levels in the tank, which is what killed the fish? I'm not sure about the color though.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3127213

Seachem

canders,

Unfortunately, after trying to look further into Sera's AquaTan conditioner, I could not find any additional information or MSDS for that particular product. Excel is a reducing agent; therefore, my assumption would be that based on the red appearance of the water, Excel used in conjunction with the AquaTan, may have reduced some heavy metals that the conditioner may contain, causing them to be very toxic to your fish. My recommendation to you would be to use our Prime, which is a highly concentrated conditioner for fresh and salt water and is compatible with Flourish Excel. If you would like to read more about Prime follow the link below to the products web page:

http://www.seachem.com/Products/prod...ges/Prime.html

I hope this helps and let us know if you have any further questions.

canders

Thanks for the replies. Just thought I would bounce it off some people, I guess its a warning that seemingly harmless things can cross-react, and wreak havoc in such a little closed system. Everyone raves about Excel, so I will stick to one companies products in the future.
Thanks again.

rich815

I change water in my 18 gal and my 5 gal hex 50% about once a week, and my 72 gal about 50% 2-3x a week (planted discus tank). I add add Prime conditioner as I'm refilling with the water. Right after each change I add a double dose of excel (about 20ml in the 72 gal, 5ml in the 18 gal and a 2ml in the 5 gal), and then often some ferts about 5 minutes later. Sometimes micros (Flourish, CSM+B or TMG; Seachem Trace and Iron), sometimes macros (N,P and K usually dry), plus some GH Booster. Have not usually had any issues.

From what you are describing in terms of greenish hue and then reddish makes me think you had some kind of bloom going which may have caused an ammonia spike of some sort which did in the apistos. Did you happen to do any major uprooting or moving of plants around that may have stirred up the substrate and caused some mulm, detritus, old food and such to mix around in the water? One time I did that and had green water and a serious ammonia spike in no time. A few water changes and a UV sterilizer took care of things, but now if I ever do any major plant movements or anything that stirs up the substrate I do at least two 50% water changes back to back (water level down 50%, add prime and refill, then change 50% again, add prime, etc.) to be sure to really remove anything that might cause that ammonia spike and get as much fresh water in there I can. I especially do not clean the filters in this case for this water change to preserve the bio-filter bacteria.

Did you test for ammonia or nitrites at any time while this was all going down? Did you happen to "over" clean your filter and filter media at the same time maybe dropping your beneficial bacteria colony too much?

Seachem

You're very welcome, canders.

rich815--thanks for your ideas and input