Aquatic Plant Forum banner

An (excited) word about filtration

97K views 313 replies 52 participants last post by  BriDroid 
#1 · (Edited)
I got excited or something discussing cheap and powerful canister filters made in China. So I jolted down some words of wisdom. Could be an eye opener for someone.

A few details have been ommited. Like what kind of glue is best to keep your fish in one place after you hook up a crazy powerful pump to your filter and have 0 algae issues.

Here it is:

It really annoys me to see filters labeled "for XXX gal. size tank". That's the dumbest claim ever.

Virtually all canister filters on the market are equipped with motors that are completely inadequate. Or rather - the motors belong to filters that are at least 1/2 the size of the housing.

Here's how it works:
There is a publication, a scientific one, about the water turnover through a filter that will provide 100% filtration. Running 1 tank volume an hour through the filter does not mean you have filtered all the water in the tank once. That's because the water being sucked by the filter is a mix of filtered and unfiltered water.

So, to make this simple - the water in an aquarium needs to pass through the filter 9.2 times in order to be filtered 100%.

Ok, so for my 100 gal. tank I need a filter that pumps 900 gph? No. I actually need more. I need about 40% more flow because of the resistance of the filter media, hoses etc. So to filter 100% of the water in a 100 gal. tank once every hour I need a filter pump that runs 1200 gph.

Wow!

And there is something else. There is an optimal volume of the filter media in relation to the tank volume. It is 8-10% of the tank volume. So for my 100 gal. tank I need a filter that holds 10 gals. of media.

Another "wow"!

And of course there is more. The filter media area is important. Meaning that I cannot get the smallest cheapest canister filter, hook up a 1200 gph pump to it and cover all bases. Simply put the volume of the filter and the pump output need to match. For my 100 gal. tank I need a filter that holds 10 gals of media and 1200 gph pump. But these 10 gals of media better not be stacked high. They better be spread as wide as possible. The thickness should not be more than 6.5 inches.

Wow...

No, that's not the end. There is a scary part to it all too. The same bacteria that happily eats your fishes' waste and makes Nitrate from stinky and toxic Ammonia will actually do the opposite if the flow through the filter media is too slow. So on Monday my bacteria eats Ammonia and produces Nitrate. On Tuesday my filter is slightly clogged and some of the bacteria now makes Ammonia from the Nitrate that their buddies produce. On Wednesday... you get it - most of the bacteria could be making Ammonia.

More... The bacteria in the biofilter is not just bacteria. It's all sorts of animals that gradually evolve and establish themselves. Think of it as the History of the World. Civilizations rose and fell. It's never the same. Now imagine what would happen if someone swept the place clean every 100 years or so. Started anew. There will be no real history. No humans. No internet!!! My point is - when you diligently rinse your filter every week or every month you are doing exactly that - resetting the development of your biofilter. Harming it. What is right to do is to choose the proper media that does not clog easily and does not need frequent rinsing.

Yes there is more... but enough said.

All of that makes my head hurt. Because when I see filters labeled "for up to 290 gal. tank" it's as if we all understand the conditions. And we don't. I bet this is the first post that explains filtration somewhat clearly to you. I've been in this hobby since 1981 and only the last year heard about all these things.

Basically if the filtration is properly setup you do not need mechanical filtration. You will seldom fight algae. There will be wars and fails and victories that you will never see - your bacteria and Co. will take care of it all for you.

Or one can just enjoy this hobby. It is not said we all must do things "the right way". It's about having fun, right.

--Nikolay
 
See less See more
#222 ·
So it looks to me based on the use of superjet filters that 5% volume ls good but 10% is better. I was feeling inadequate since my filter holds 5% and not 10% ; )

It is cool that Eheim is selling motor less filters. That is a "real" Eheim product that Eheim sells, right? This has been discussed several times and the consensus is "it should be OK but who really knows" and now that Eheim is saying it's fine, it makes me want to buy an Eheim classic with a broken pump and do it myself. One filter loaded with Poret and one loaded with bio rio. Or maybe just bio rio (great stuff!)


About the COD test that ADA sells... I have wondered about it but I don't know of anyone who uses them, cares, and i don't know what they are. I do 33% weekly water changes, use a lot of purogen, and have no fish so I'm assuming it's probably 0 anyway.
 
#223 ·
So back to my 40 gallon tank:

Eheim 2217 at ~250 gph = flow of 6.25x tank volume

Eheim with 1.66 gal bio-media = 4% of tank volume

So in comparison to the ADA examples above, I would have more flow than needed, and filter volume at minimum. I notice that the ADA example with the lowest % filter volume is an open, relatively sparsely planted design.

But the other two examples do not follow the same trend. The ADA tank with the highest % filter volume looks to have a "medium" dense design. The intermediate tank has very dense planting. Of course we may not be able to see important details in the photographs.

Let's assume I set the tank up with the current equipment. If I notice problems, especially algae growth, it would seem that my first approach should be to devise a way of increasing the volume of media in my filtration system. This would be instead of adding more flow.

How about an auxillary in-line media chamber? Maybe someone's old Eheim with a burned-out pump.
 
#225 ·
Michael,

I think you should try to see how the 40 gals. works with the 2217 as it is. What could be useful from this thread is:

- Make sure you distribute the flow in the best way you can. It looks like if there is any "rule" it is simple - if you can make all your plant leaves move you are in good shape. If you can do that with the Eheim only then great.

- Have as much biomedia as you can.

- If you are adding more biomedia in-line with the current filter your flow will drop at least a little. Consider adding more flow at that time.

- In the first month of the tank life use activated carbon

- Seed the filter before hooking it up to the new tank

- It makes sense to bubble air in the tank at night - to help the bacteria in the filter work better.

And if you have a fluidized bed filter chamber already consider using it. Also - I would advice for using very careful fertilization but I think you know what you are doing considering your beautiful lush tank in the entry of your house.

Strat,

I do not know why ADA has not pushed fluidized bed filters more. Considering what Amano himself says about filtration and Oxygen:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...15-k1-filter-makeing-videos-some-other-4.html

I can only guess that the issues associated with a sand filters has kept ADA off them. Settling and quick toxicity in the event of failure that is. Maybe.

--Nikolay
 
#226 ·
Niko, I've got a hot lead on a stand for the tank, so I may be able to put all this into practice soon!

Funny you should mention seeding the filter. Just today I decided to start putting lava rock in the HOBs on my other two tanks so that it would be ready for the 40 gallon. Per your helpful suggestion, after a batch of lava rock is well-started, it will be moved to a tray of shallow water where the microbes can stay alive while another batch is started.

Thank you for the compliment on my 20 gallon. That tank is pure Walstad--light, soil, fish food, fish excreta, and circulation. No ferts, no CO2.
 
#227 ·
I have set up a small "bog" over a 45 gallon tank.
I used a plastic window box sort of planter that is about 2' long, 6" x 6" cross section. I filled it with lava rock that is about 3/8" diameter. (Available in rock yards) I set up a mesh at the inlet end so I could clean the mesh and not let too much debris get into the rock. Outlet is through a couple of bulkhead fittings and a bit of tubing into the tank. The whole thing sits on top of the tank.
Then I hooked up a pump of about 100gph and let it run. I have a coarse sponge over the intake of the pump. (Aquaclear filter sponge)
I cleaned the mesh once, but it did not really need it even then. A year or two ago, after it had been running for a couple of years I took the whole box outside and ran a hose through it to clean out the lava rock. Nothing came out of it. The lava rock seems not to stop the fine debris that gets through the sponge.
This sort of set up grows house plants like crazy. I had the most beautiful Maranta relative in there! Now it is a Heartleaf Philodendron.
It is probably a bio filter in both senses, plants and bacteria, Nitrospiros and others.
The volume is nowhere near the 10% of the tank, but it is not the only filter on the tank.

I originally based the idea on the bog style filters for ponds.
~ Emersed plants grow better because they have unlimited CO2 from the air.
~Bog filter is roughly 10% of the volume of the pond, but usually rather shallow, so more surface area per gallon.

I have a bog filter on my pond. It is incorporated into the overall design.
250 gallon main pond at the lowest end. 3' deep in the middle, but shelved so I can put pots of shallow water plants around the sides.
1000 gph sump pump pumps water about 20' horizontally and 4' up to a water fall that splashes from between some rocks. Careful work with colored concrete to make this look natural. This water falls into a 45 gallon pre-fab pond, then spills over into the bog.
The bog was created by excavating an area as wide as the pond (about 6'), and about 12' long. It is less than 2' deep at the deepest. Mostly it is filled with peat moss. A special kind of weed mat keeps an area clear for a cobblestone stream bed. This zig-zags through the peat moss and ultimately spills about 16" into the main pond.

The pond has housed up to a dozen goldfish (until the raccoons found them) and the water was always clear, though debris would settle on the bottom. It was hard to keep plants in the pond because the Golds would nibble any underwater parts.

The bog is planted with Japanese Iris, Calla Lily, Canna Lily, Sedge and some other things, that vary as some things survive and others die.
I tore it apart a few years ago, looking for a leak (The leak was not in the bog) and there were no bad smells, the plant roots were well distributed throughout the peat moss.

I have several brands and models of filters on many tanks. I have modified the intake by using PVC Ts to create several intake points. Then I put an Aquaclear sponge, or a coarser sponge over the intake point.
These sponges plug up pretty fast if I have disturbed anything in the tank, so a few days after a major cleaning I need to rinse out the sponges. Then everything is stable for a few weeks. The coarser sponges allow more debris through, so do not plug up so fast.
Basic water flow in most tanks is:
Inlet at the top-back-middle. Spray bar or HOB weir. Some are the point source sort of outlet of the Fluval *04 series. Aimed at the front of the tank.
Inlets are at the bottom back, several sponge covered inlets depending on the flow from the filter.
 
#228 ·
#229 ·
Hm, here's another observation:

I have successfully cleared my big tank from algae using just increased flow. Here's a picture in the process of clearing. Note the Cladophora and BBA on the wood:

https://picasaweb.google.com/ddasega/6FtAquariumAtHome#5551654811274126626

As I said before - after I cleared the tank I let it go down. For a month I did not clean the clogged pumps. Algae came back and the Bolbitis stopped growing.

After that it took only about 3 days of increased flow and the algae just about disappeared.

The effect was especially visible on the leaves of the Bolbitis waving on the current. On the first day the algae shriveled up and by day 3 only small remnants remained in isolated places.

Today I was admiring the clean tank and I could not help but wonder: What prevents the algae from growing on the wood or the rocks? To at least try to grow! I understand that better plant health leads to less algae, but I refuse to believe that my tank has completely clean water. After all all these fish have got to dirty up the tank - at least enough for some algae to show up. If not on the super healthy plant then on the soft Manzanita wood.

What I see instead is a Bolbitis has already started again to shoot huge leaves. And wood that just does not grow algae any more. Only small algae dots are left.

If the increased flow is the reason for all of that I think all these pages of writings were worth it.

--Nikolay
 
#230 ·
Increased flow, AND careful placement of all the devices to boost the circular pattern of flow in the tank.

It is really interesting to read the anecdotal information coming in from different people in different threads who have made these changes in their tanks.
 
#231 ·
#232 · (Edited)
Here, I found it:

This open space aquascape in a 70 gallon tank has an Eheim Pro 3 filter - model 2080.

450 gph

3.5 gallons of media

The flow is 7.5x the tank volume.
The filter media is 5.5% of the tank volume.

(I figure actual water volume as 60 gals. It's probably about 57.)

--Nikolay
 
#234 ·
having spent the last few minutes reading almost every post on this thread... ok maybe it was more like 3 or 4 days, i have thought about other discussions and "tips" i have seen on this and other sites regarding planted tank setups. but first i think im going to "try" to recap what major points i have read on here that may/may not be correct. some things im adding in here from my own experience with mostly outside the tank stuff from being a tool maker (hydrolics classes) being a carpenter (plumbing and electrical) and race cars (engine exhaust and intake flow and aerodynamics)

1) TAKE FLOW (im using underscores here since niko is using bolds for his titling. i dont want people to get confused as im learning from him and others.) i think we have agreed that we need to establish a flow pattern in the tank. the flow pattern does two things in the water, it disperses nutrients and CO2/O2 around the tank and picks up junk and returns it to the filter to get broken down by bacteria. the amount of flow is a variable due to different tank restrictions in the water such as plants, decorations, fish, other equipment, even the distance that the water flow must travel. the flow in the tank should be set up so that it avoids stagnant water spots. having water moving in just a circular pattern tends to leave stagnate spots in the center of the tank where sediment settles. by placing the output of the tank more in the center of the tank, it gives the flow a more of a swirl pattern (again neglecting other stuff in the tank) so that once the water reaches the other side of the tank via center it hits the opposite glass and disperses out away from the source. from the opposite glass the water goes in all directions, up down, left and right and returns back to the supply inlet of the filter which, in Amano's tanks is conveniently located near his lilly pipe. the object is to get water moving everywhere AND to return back to the pickup point of the filter. its not so much of a 3-dimensional "double U" but a 3-dimensional "double W" ore maybe a "double ---3|" where the underline is the opposite glass of the water supply. this seems to be the theory of why you dont see spray bars. locating this water jet in a clear spot in your tank should yield the more "efficient" water flow. the flow rate needed to do is, is a variable of direction of flow, and obstructions of flow.

2) pump flow now the elusive part is overall pump flow and media flow. i think there are several variables here but one general concept. the more flow you get threw more bio media the better. its kinda like having a car too fast like a nice hot BMW. no such thing unless your the cops (which in this case would be algae). you have to keep flow rates going threw the bio media as high as possible so that the bacteria gets fed nutrients and oxygen. you also want as much bio material as possible.

now the first thing about water pumps is that the power is not in the pump itself, it is the motor that turns the pump. its basically torque. the motor wants to turn at a particular speed and that is what turns the pump at a particular speed and that is what creates our water flow. the pump itself determines the flow rate at a given speed. the more restrictions you put in the water flow whether it is too much bio material, bends in the hoses, plugged filters, rippled walled flex hoses vs smooth wall hoses, tight 90* fittings, tubing diameter, your child's passifier, what ever, the more power it is going to take to turn the pump to achieve the original flow. the higher the flow rate, the more prone to slow down once these things start pushing back. i think (not sure here) that the power is basicly measured in head height). the more head height the more higher your pump can force water away from the tank height and that takes some some serious power.

what does this have to do with filter flow, the more powerful your pump input is (motor) the more water you can force threw more restrictive bio material. the faster the flow threw the bio material brakes up water causing the water to "cavitate" and actually creates air bubbles. these air bubbles may actually help feed the bacteria in our filters. remember the bigger the filter material, in the case of this thread seems to favor lava rock, the less restrictive it is to the water flow but the less surface area you have compared to smaller chunks. niko and some others suggests 3/4-1" pieces.

3) plumbing i think we all agree that plumbing can be very restrictive if not properly done. tight bends and rippled walled hoses causes a lot of turbulence and back pressure in water flow. ways to reduce this is straight wall hoses with gentle bends. watch 90* bends in PVC pipes as they sometimes have sharp points on the inside of the radius. using hoses with light bends, no kinks, is your least restrictive setup. pipe size also is a concern. the larger the diameter the more flow you are capable of producing... but you loose fluid velocity. for the inlet into the pump, i would suggest using larger diameter tubing to help reduce the amount of drag on your pump. now the question here is, we have all these high flow pumps going into tanks like Amano's, is he aiming more for water speed or just general flow? does the inertia of water flow travel just as far in a long tank with flow alone or does the water need to go faster initially? im almost thinking speed is key here to help pick up junk settling on the bottom of the tank. if we were just pushing nutrients, i dont think it really matters.

4) CO2 i have seen in the past people suggesting plumbing up their CO2 into the inlet side of the filter to let the material of the filter help diffuse the CO2 into the water. i dont think doing this is such a bright idea. bacteria requires O2 to thrive. if dropping your PH down to 6.5 as niko suggested, drastically reduces the effectiveness of the bacteria, i dont think adding CO2 to it is a good idea. not even in the least bit. if you really want to add CO2 into your filter, add it after the filter material on the output side. Amano's filters show his CO2 setup on the opposite side of the tank as the filter supply and pressure.

5) aeration i think we have also concluded that adding either an air stone or air wand in your tank will drastically improve bacteria efficiency at night when the lights turn off because we all know, the fish dont stop poopin when the lights are out.

now these are just my thought and my take on what has been discussed in the previous... 24 pages. i would like to see if other people generally agree with what i have said or if they have another direction of thinking? thats the beauty of a forum. and then the tricky part... practicing what i preach. i hopefully have a used Fuval 405 coming for use in my 30 gal ro replace my aqua-tech 30-60 HOB filter. it has 340 gph and 2.25 gal of filter volume. i think that should be enough :badgrin:
 
#235 ·
speaking of hobs, am I the only one that does this. I don't use the carbon pads I take those out. by bio media, and go to shoe store take a few of the free woman panyhose stocking that they have in the woman shoe sections to try on shoes, go home clean them with tap and prime. then throw the bio media in them, then put them in the chamber port of the hob... this gives a place for a decent amount of biomedia when you are limited on money for a filter...
 
#236 ·
Zabman, point #2:
Too fast a water flow is detrimental to the bacteria. Using a coarse media with finer holes works well because the fast flow through the media is OK, the bacteria are in the smaller holes and not exposed to the fast flow. The water slows as it enters the small holes.

Too fast a water flow is also detrimental to the plants. The leaves get torn apart in the flow.

Otherwise, yes, a lot of water flow will keep the debris in suspension, and correctly directing the flow will get that debris to the filter intake so it is removed from the tank.

I think you are correct in assuming that for oxygen, CO2 and fertilizer movement, keeping these available at a steady rate to fish and plants does not require high flow rate, but does call for a good layout of the inlet(s) and outlet(s) so all the water is circulated.
It may call for a high rate out of a single outlet in a large tank or else the water movement dies and the tank develops stagnant areas.

fishyjoe, I also use nylon stockings as media bags. I start with knee-his and cut to suit the project. Smaller filters, I can get about 3 bags out of 1 knee-hi. Larger filters, 2 bags out of 1 knee-hi.
When I am making softer water for the fish I put a whole knee-hi of peat moss in a garbage can of water and soak overnight.
I do not use the provided cartridges of carbon in HOBs.
I usually set them up with an Aquaclear sponge, then some finer media. The bacteria will grow on the sponges and other media, and I get mechanical filtration this way, too.
I keep the cartridges in case of emergency, or to remove medications from the tank. I have had some cartridges sitting around, just waiting for a use for about 10 years.
 
#237 · (Edited)
Having just read through Zabman's post--in which he lists several areas we all should consider as we try to establish a successful tank--I'd like to add one component to this discussion that I haven't seen mentioned much, and which may seem a bit obvious to point out, but which I think is absolutely essential to keeping a successful aquarium: observation.

Why is observation important? This is a discussion of filtration, right? Yeah, it is. But we have to consider the timelines of our subjects when we try to understand them. Our subjects, of course, are our plants and the creatures that live among them. Our plants do not expose the effects of change quickly, as we understand it; they move a bit slower than us. You can, however, see a timeline of change in their green face, if you wait long enough.

My point is this. When you make a change to your setup, keep a journal--written or mental--of the state of things and note how things changed. The evidence of the results is what matters, not the change itself. Notice that Niko does this. I've been reading this thread, looking out for one single thing: is Niko's algae gone in his bolbitus tank. I want to know if the changes he's made worked. Hypothesis is interesting, but testing is what makes hypothesis theory.

We can post all day about "I did this" or "I did that", but we need some follow up a few weeks later with the results or it's all just talk.

With this in mind, I'll say on my part, that I've gone against the grain and setup a circulation pattern that moves from the top of the back side of the tank with the flow directed at the front glass, which pushes the water down to the substrate and back along the bottom into the base of the plants. My setup has been a 55 gallon tank with a Rena XP4 on the right side, using the spray bar with the outlets pointed at the bottom front of the glass, so that the output goes as far as possible before hitting an impediment. The intake is on the right side also.

I then have an Eheim 2236 on the left side with the outlet spraying into the surface to create some turbidity, directed to the right side as much as possible. The intake is on the left side of the tank.

Then I have two Koralia Nano 425s sitting side by side on the left side, just right of the output of the Eheim, as near the surface as possible, pointed at the front glass, aimed as low as the Koralia design allows. I set them up this way to mirror the flow of the Rena on the other side of tank as much as possible.

So far, I have seen increased growth of my Heteranthera zosterifolia on the left side. The layout above increased flow to this plant quite a bit. I've also seen increased growth in my limnophila aromatica on the right side. Again, increased flow seems to have been a factor. Slowed growth in the middle on my h polysperma. This is the weakest area of flow, so a trend seems to be established, especially considering the h polysperma should be the fastest growing plant in the tank. As far as algae, all I can find is some GSA on the front glass, mostly in the center of the tank. Again, lowest area flow. During water change, finding almost nothing to vacuum except within my staurogyne field, which is about 30 inches long, 6 inches wide, and acts as a nice mechanical filter. No fish losses in last six weeks, or when thread began, expect for two dwarf gourami whom I suspect are iridovirus victims (I've had a rash of these, having lost several dwarf gourami in the last 90 days). My water clears within an hour after feeding with this setup, and I feed heavy. In the evening, once reflections from the windows are minimal, my fish look like they are swimming through the air, so the water is clean.

My 29 gallon tank has a similar setup, but with two eheim 2232 and 2234 filters, one on each side, with both outputs aimed at the surface to create turbidity. I have more meat eaters in this tank, so a heavy blood worm diet requires more aeration to combat the lipid surface scum. Then I have two Koralia Nano 425s, one on each side just below the Eheim outputs, pointed at the bottom front glass. Needless to say, this tank has even higher flow rate than the 55 gallon tank.

For whatever reason, I have more to vacuum in this tank than the larger one. Per volume, the fish load is the same, and the livestock is very similar (cories, bristlenose, RCS and snails). The water is just as clean, if not more so. Algae is even less prevalent in this tank with almost no GSA to speak of.

The higher aeration is the only reason I can see for the lesser degree of GSA, as the PO4 dosing is similar per volume and the lighting level is the same in both tanks. Why I have more substrate trash though, I am not sure. The most likely possibility, however, seems to be that the larger tank has 4 adult cories, whereas, the smaller tank has juvenile cories.

Each of these tanks has a large amount of anubias, also. In the larger tank, the leaves of the anubias are always clean. In the smaller tank, they are always covered in trash. I don't see anymore fish/shrimp activity on the leaves of the anubias in one tank versus the other, so I can dismiss the fish as the reason for one being cleaner than the other. This leaves flow, which is higher in the smaller tank. Even when I have directed a Koralia into the anubias in the smaller tank, I still do not see the problem resolve itself. Thus far, I have not been able to come to a sensible conclusion on why the 55 is cleaner than the 29. However, one potential cause could be the diet of the fish. Having fewer herbivorous fish in the smaller tank ... Perhaps they are less efficient with their waste? I'll be looking into that.
 
#238 ·
Ekrindul,

I am the greatest internet aquarist you will ever know. Seriously. Instead of tinkering with my tanks I like to write lengthy posts speculating about things I believe are or utmost importance to this hobby. But when I decide to write it is because I either have read something that made sense or have experience that seems to prove my speculations.

Here's an example. Read items 10 and 11 in this post:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...s/76557-circulation-seems-key.html#post578948

Basically I have a 160 gal. tank that is nearly impossible to clear up from algae completely. Not just a tough case:

https://picasaweb.google.com/ddasega/6FtAquariumAtHome#

- Filters that are too small compared to the size of the tank
- Flow that was too slow
- Flow pattern was and is very much chaotic
- Way too many fish - I dump 1/2 cup of dry food in that tank every single day.
- One single plant, not a nutrient sponge either
- Low light (1 wpg)
- No CO2

Stuff many fish in a tank, feed them a lot, do not pump CO2, have low light, small filters, low flow, chaotic flow.... Try to get rid of algae? Are you kidding me?

You can read my experience after I increased the flow about 5 times. Note - I did change water every other day too. But also note - when I stopped taking care of the tank for a month it took a long time for things to start going bad again. And items 10 and 11 show that it was VERY easy to fix things.

What I have now is Bolbitis ramping up again for very vigorous growth. Algae that just sits in hidden places where it's hard to see and does NOT grow. I actually keep minor portions of algae without touching them so I see how they act. There is ZERO growth. I now know that once I clear literally 100% of the algae with extreme every-other-day water changes I can easily maintain that "impossible" tank by doing a normal 1 water change a week.

And mind you - no added fertilizers. No ratios, availability, fertilators, chelators... Fish waste (it never accumulates anywhere), CO2 from breathing, micros from tap water. 100% hands off tank - feed fish every day, change 25% of water once a week. And water changes are NOT vacuuming anything - just stick a hose in the middle of the water and syphon it out.

Beats me how (maybe Metrofish's magical flake food) but 5 min. after I dump the 1/2 cup of food in the tank the water is completely clean again. There is no residual opalescence. No invisible particles that make the water kind of milky for some time. 5 min. and the tank is crystal clear again.

As I said before - I have been seeing surface film after I increased the flow. My guess is that the dying algae ooze their juices in the water and form the oily film. I do not know if I'm right but now that I have minimal algae left the surface film is much less. The Bolbitis has a few damaged looking leaves. They always get algae first and deteriorate quickly. Now I see them "frozen in time" - they do not get algae and do not deteriorate either. They look like zombies - dead but with a litle life in them. My point is - the Bolbitis is really in exceptional health - maintaining even the damaged leaves in the best shape they can be.

Now I can NOT say that my experience is a sure way to run every single tank successfully. Maybe I have good tap water. Tank has been running for 4 years now (without plants or with big algae issues, monstrous rather). But what I know is that frequent water changes and low flow (230 gph in this 160 gal. tank) did not improve it the least bit.

So bottom line for me is - there is something in the flow rate that is VERY important. In this thread we ended up trying to find out what it is by looking at many things. Do all these things improve every single tank? I think so. Still - as I've been saying lately - whatever you do if you only make the plant leaves gently move in the current you may have done all that your tank needs. No mandatory U-flow, no special placing of the pipes, no laminar movement, no new big filter.

What makes this hobby confusing is that we don't have answers to some things that seem very clear. Like your 55 and 29 gal tanks.Some of you may remember that at the ADG gallery in Houston they have 3 identical tanks that you see as soon as you walk in the door. Nothing differs in these tanks - same size, equipment, and care. Except that the right one was always problematic. Back in 2003-2006 I think they changed it many times to a final state that was both beautiful and manageable. Why was that happening even with people that have so much experience?

--Nikolay
 
#239 ·
Zabman,

I have said that in the "Dummy questions" from a year ago - the flow through the biofilter needs to be slow.

So we are in a predicament - we need good strong flow in the tank but slow flow through the filter.

The only way to do that is to have a large size filter. So the water flow coming fast and strong from the aquarium slows down going through the biofilter.

Think of it as "time to react". The bacteria needs time to bite, chew, and gulp the waste. That is an oversimplification but I guess it will stick to one's mind. So the flow through the filter needs to be slow.

But not too slow. As I said before - the Germans have figured out the optimal flow for their Poret foam. Flow that is too fast is not good. But flow that is too slow actually causes the biofilter to MAKE Ammonia (the very thing they normally eat).

I think that ADA has figured out the size of their filters based on the compromise "filter size vs. optimal flow". Overall it does make a sense to use the largest filter you can. But not to the point of reducing the flow to a slow trickle through the filter (Ammonia making levels).

--Nikolay
 
#245 ·
Zabman,

I have said that in the "Dummy questions" from a year ago - the flow through the biofilter needs to be slow.

So we are in a predicament - we need good strong flow in the tank but slow flow through the filter.

The only way to do that is to have a large size filter. So the water flow coming fast and strong from the aquarium slows down going through the biofilter.

Think of it as "time to react". The bacteria needs time to bite, chew, and gulp the waste. That is an oversimplification but I guess it will stick to one's mind. So the flow through the filter needs to be slow.

But not too slow. As I said before - the Germans have figured out the optimal flow for their Poret foam. Flow that is too fast is not good. But flow that is too slow actually causes the biofilter to MAKE Ammonia (the very thing they normally eat).

I think that ADA has figured out the size of their filters based on the compromise "filter size vs. optimal flow". Overall it does make a sense to use the largest filter you can. But not to the point of reducing the flow to a slow trickle through the filter (Ammonia making levels).

--Nikolay
so basically what you are saying is that increasing the flow rate threw a smaller filter is a bad idea considering that you are trying to cram more water threw the same space in the same amount of time (more speed). or is this what you mean by how canister filter can get more flow? that the filters basically come with a bare minimum flow rate to function and when we "over pack" the filter with media that it no longer works properly?

if you have a filter that you feel the flow rate may be too fast, can you put in more bio-material in the filter to slow the water flow with little to no ill-effects with in reason or does the above senerio create more problems and you would be better off redirecting the water?

just trying to clarify my thinking.
 
#241 ·
In my 10 gallon tank with the minimalist layout, I have an eheim 2213 providing filtration. Had i used a standard nozzle, I believe my plants and shrimp would be thrown all over the place inside the tank, seeing as the gph is 116. However, using knock off lily pipes, The flow is extremely gentle, but still pulls the detritus off of the gravel. I have hairgrass in the back of the tank, and as the flow hits the opposite glass, it gently bends the hairgrass over. Becuase of this, I think that the outflow shape is in fact very important as was discussed a while ago in this thread. The shape of the lily pipe allows the water to expand in a controlled way, which gives you the strong flow without being a fast flow.
 
#244 ·
We have all gradually arrived to this same thought - large flow needs to not be blowing things away in our tanks. But look at the San Marcos river. That's what Phil told me 2 months ago when we were trying to figure out this flow business. The flow in that river is huge + smooth:

https://picasaweb.google.com/ddasega/SanMarcosRiverMay172008#5201553071474435426

https://picasaweb.google.com/ddasega/SanMarcosRiverMay172008#5201553075769402738

Look at the wild rice in it (the long dark green plant). Seeing it live you will notice it gently moves in the current. I wish I remembered the flow rate/hr. that Casey (our guide studying plants and fish in the river) told us about. It was huge I assure you. But you cannot tell by looking at the river. The smooth movement fools you. Good idea to try it in your tank? You decide.

And another thing.. Must have been 2006 or so, I talked with Luis Navarro about filters. I mentioned that certain filter will blow everything out of the tank because it was too strong. He said (I think) "Well, yes, modify the outtake, I do that all the time." If you don't know who Luis is or have not seen pictures of his tanks do a little googling. His water clarity and plant health are scary.

--Nikolay
 
#242 ·
And here is my latest observation.

About 2 years ago I setup a 10 gallon tank at a friend's house. They wanted 2 goldfish so they got them. I was convinced that they are not going to keep up with the water changes and the tank will look like pea soup in about... hmmm.. a week!

To this day, after 2 years, the tank looks as if I set it up 1 hour ago. Completely clean. Artificially clean look! The 2 goldfish have grown and come to nibble on my finger feeling very safe in their home.

Here's my highly scientific experiment that took place last night. It had to do with observing how the particles move around the tank.

1. Tank has no plants. Just gravel and a few golf-size rocks white as snow. Nothing obstructs the flow.

2. HOB filter hangs on the left side. Shoots water close to the surface. Sucks water under the outflow.

So here's what I did - I just shook the filter cartridge in the HOB filter. That released quite a few debries that imediately shot acros the tank. Going to the right. They reached the opposite side (the right side glass). They went down. Then they went along the bottom (headed to the left).

The big pieces get wedged in the gravle. About 1-1/2" from the glass they have already settled on the gravel.

The small pieces float all the way back to the left. BUT! A lot of them go to the sides. A lot of them linger by the suction.

Still - there is a definite U-shaped flow pattern in that tank. Strong flow. Unobstructed flow.

Observatons I can't deny:
Large particles WILL settle no matter what.
Small particles are carried to the suction but not necessarily get sucked by it right away.
Small particles tend to go to the side of the main flow along the bottom.
Small particles spend some time close to the suction before being sucked in.
Some small particles make a few other rounds on the U-shaped ride.

Conclusions:
Small particles make or break the tank.
The goal is to involve small particles in a directed movement.
The goal is to let small particles sidetrack as little as possible.
The goal is to involve small particles in a movement that pulls them from the bottom and from the sides.

Once again we are back to flow and flow pattern.

But I want to make an additional comment to this. It's about "making small particles":
Some years ago I noticed that if I add snails, Amano shrimp and dwarf shrimp in a tank the visible waste on the bottom is reduced about 70%. A tank with only Amanos + snails is considerably dirtier. I started to believe that having many "points of waste processing" is a very good idea. And the goal is to "grind" the waste to finer and finer particles so it probably easier for the bacteria to grab and process. Now I think that fine particles that are moved in a directed way in the tank lead to a cleaner tank. Or... they will linger in the tank and cause all sorts of unexplicable issues.

--Nikolay
 
#247 ·
Niko this is what I was asking about in that other thread in the general plant forum. I have a 2217 on a 29G, and the spray bar blows everything away. The only issue on switching to a lily, or knock off lily is the price, and finding a reliable source. Unless there is another cheaper, easier alternative?
 
#248 ·
#288 ·
Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I just joined the site. In case someone is still looking for the English version, it's here:

http://en.aquanet.tv/Video/205-taka...e-master-of-nature-aquariums-by-chris-lukhaup

I can't explain the t-shirt, but they have a lot of very informative videos in English if you have the time to kill (click on the videos link on that page).

In case you want to see Amano's home tank they talk about in the video:





Thanks Niko for the informative thread. This site has been invaluable for me getting started in the hobby.
 
#289 ·
#249 ·
well looking at my freshwater and saltwater tank, and all the filter talk I have thought about this... (evaporation)--the water height changed the level of light penetration - Which changes water pressure, Water Temperature, Light Dispersion,etc. so the grow of plants would be effected. could certain lighting and certain filtering play a roll on a tank lay out...

look at amano tank designs.. the intake and the out take are on the sides, as to where most of us have the intake and outtake on the back..

also look at his lighting, they all seem to be MH metal hailagent(spelling?) lighting.
 
#250 ·
need a version of that video without the japaneese voice over haha. i think i understood 2 words because they are names. very nice post though niko

fishyjoe, i have noticed the outflow and intake on the sides as well. i "think" it is because the water can travel farther without obstructions to disrupt flow. if you put the outflow on the back of the tank. the water flow will hit the front glass much quicker and then the water flow will scatter at a much slower flow rate.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top