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Alternanthera has some problems...

10K views 38 replies 14 participants last post by  shalu 
#1 · (Edited)


My alternanthera seems to be gowing well except for the problem you see in this picture. Leaves that are a few nodes down (read: not very old), are getting pinholed and ragged. I have tried increasing both NO3 and Traces without success. My dosing follows:

50% WC on Sunday
75G
3.8 WPG
about 60ppm CO2 (probably more)
1/2tsp KNO3 4x week
1/8tsp PO4 4x week
10ml Plantex 4x week
3ml potent Fe 4x week

As far as I can see, at this point all that is really left is a K shortage. Anybody care to chime in?
 
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#2 ·
There is no K+ shortage, you have no less than 4x the needed amount before you'll run into an issue there.

If the environmental conditions have been like this and you are certain of the CO2 and it has been at this level, you should not have these issues.
I assume the GH is decent?

So trim the leaves off(they will not do the plant any good) and wait for the new growth to come back in.

CO2 measurements have issues, measurinjg with a probe can throw off the measurement when the lights/electrical equipment is powered, turn them off and check.

Also check the CO2 early and later in the day.
My plants in a non CO2 tank grow about 1" per week, you should have fast growth given what you are doing.

Nutrient deficicency can be ruled out except for CO2, GH and the past issues, the new growth looks fine, something perhaps 1-3 weeks ago caused this problem it looks like.

Regards,
Tom Barr

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#3 ·
Tom,

I appreciate your response. I figure I am loading up on plenty of nutrients to make deficiencies nearly impossible, so this problem perplexes me. To answer your questions, I am certain my CO2 is 60ppm+. I have not checked my gH in about 7 months but my last reading was 10dH. I don't use a probe, I use a liquid testing solution and inject CO2 24/7. Growth is fast except for the problems you see. There shouldn't have been any problems in the last few weeks to cause these issues. I also have an issue with my heteranthera zosterifolia melting. I can provide you with a picture if you think the cause might be what is causing my alternanthera problems.
 
#5 ·
Could there be something in the tank damaging the plants? I see that most of the holes are between the midrib and the edge with the edges looking relatively undamaged. Also, most of the damage is on the broader part of the leaf with the narrower tips undamaged. Nutrient deficiency would be more evenly distributed on the leaves. On the plant at left of the picture, the older leaves look undamaged.
 
#6 ·
BF: Why would you think that I might have Mg deficiencies with a gH of 10?

PK: Could be damage. The tank contains brilliant rasboras, neons, ghost shrimp, relatively few mts, and ramshorn snails. I have never seen anything munching on it though.
 
#7 ·
It does not look like snail damage, and the shrimp and your fish don't do damage like that. I thought maybe you had a bristlenose or some such thing.

Were the damaged leaves on the plants when you planted them, or were they produced after planting?
 
#8 ·
Overfloater said:
BF: Why would you think that I might have Mg deficiencies with a gH of 10?
GH is a function of Ca and Mg it is very possible to have all your hardness coming from Calcium and none from Mg. It has happened in my tank so now I dose Mg.
Hope this answers your question quoted above.
As for the holes sorry i couldnt be much help but you may want to check the Mg.
 
#10 ·
I thought something similar with the Mg levels in my tank. I too have a tap GH of 10 dGH (44ppm Ca and 17ppm Mg).

My tank GH was 5.5 (I was using RO water for a while) with Ca levels of 44ppm. According to the PPS spreadsheet I had 0ppm of Mg in my tank with a GH of 5.5. I added 6ppm of Mg and now add Mg solution to the tank every day.
 
#11 ·
Bob,

I see you're in Largo, Fl. I am in Alachua Fl and have well water with a gh of 11. If you have well water, you have tons of Ca and little Mg - it's the nature of our Florida limestone aquafers. I too have some issues with that plant - it will be growing well and suddently it will start having gnarled new growth. It will happen on some stems and not others. I recently purchased a Ca test kit. According to it, most of my gh comes from the Ca. So I have started dosing Mg. It's too early to tell if it has taken care of the problem yet, but my Ca/Mg ratio was way off.

I'd be curious if you find the reason eventually to know what it turned out to be.
 
#13 ·
Overfloater said:
Tom,

I appreciate your response. I figure I am loading up on plenty of nutrients to make deficiencies nearly impossible, so this problem perplexes me. To answer your questions, I am certain my CO2 is 60ppm+. I have not checked my gH in about 7 months but my last reading was 10dH. I don't use a probe, I use a liquid testing solution and inject CO2 24/7. Growth is fast except for the problems you see. There shouldn't have been any problems in the last few weeks to cause these issues. I also have an issue with my heteranthera zosterifolia melting. I can provide you with a picture if you think the cause might be what is causing my alternanthera problems.
It's CO2/NO3 related if the Stargrass is melting(too low).

Some plants can handle more variance there.
These tend not too to do so well.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
#14 ·
BigFoot said:
Just because you got 10 DGH dosent mean you got enough MG in the system. I would check all parameters to be sure.
Okay then, can you tell me what Mg deficenciy looks like?
Does it look like this?
I've had a tough time inducing it several years ago.
By all acounts, it's produce less green and more veining, the most pronounced effect occured on Anubias dark green leaves.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
#18 · (Edited)
I managed to find a water report from 2001. It lists values as follows:

Alkalinity 207 ppm
Total Hardness 217 ppm
Calcium 77.3 ppm
Magnesium 4.86 ppm

I would think this report, though it is a few years old, is probably pretty close to current values.

As you can see, my Mg is very low. I am thinking that I may have a Mg shortage. I have noticed quite a few gnarled leaf tips on the alternanthera lately. Bert perhaps you are right about a Mg deficiency. I am on city water though, not a well.

I do have Epsom Salts on hand. How much and how often should I add to a 75G tank with 4WPG and 50% WC weekly? I am thinking 1 tsp on Sunday should do it.

BTW: The pinholing seems to be becoming more pronounced in recent days.
 
#19 ·
Bob,

FWIW, as an example, in my 50 with a little over 2wpg, I am adding 1/2tsp MgSO4.7H2O during my weekly 50% water changes. It's been about 3 weeks since I started this routine and new growth looks normal so far - no gnarly leaves. I am keeping my fingers crossed.
 
#21 · (Edited)

For anyone who is following this thread...
I nabbed this picture from a post a few threads up. My alternanthera looks exactly like this with the additional pinholing. Also I am seeing the same growth tip problems in my rotala 'green' which was growing very well a few weeks ago.

This looks way too much like a Ca deficiency, not Mg deficiency. I called the water dept and the was told I could go pick up a report from last yeat but for some reason they stopped including the Ca and Mg levels. The guy told me I could call "the lab" and they could help me out. I still have to follow up on this.

I am going to start dosing Kent Turbo Calcium and skip the Mg dose. Any comments?
 
#26 · (Edited)
I have exactly the same problems (curling, leaf holes) with the alternatheras and curling on nasaea at the moment. Plus I have major interveinal chlorosis on the anubias. I have very low to almost 0 Mg (Ca is 80 ppm) so I add 5 ppm Mg every 3 days (maybe I add to much and block Ca?). This curling thing is still a mystery. I add everything in the tank in excess and do major wc before that twice a week plus I do daily dosings so there is no chance of deficiency including CO2. My NO3 is high ranging from 28 to 21 ppm measured with a colorimeter. Apart of this the tank is in top condition with no algae at all and fast growth.
 
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