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glutaraldehyde instead of excel

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174K views 258 replies 78 participants last post by  Aquaticz  
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#1 ·
Hey guys

Last week I have been using glutaraldehde in place of excel.I'm using a 2.8% solution.It's suppose to be about the same as excel but alot cheaper.I paid $16.95 a gallon.

I tried it in two tanks,a 10 gal. planted and a 60gal. planted.
It had a different effect in each tank on some of the same plants.Below I'll list each tank with the dose and effect I noticed.


60gal.,192 watts,11hours lights on,co2 injected,ferts daily,plants are red tiger lotus,rotalia indica,sword,ludwigia,anubias,hair grass and crypts,34 fish.

I dosed 30ml 9/23/6 after a water change then 10ml daily.
On 9/25/6 the angelfish spawned so it seems to have no effect on the fish.
9/27/6 the sword plant started growing fast.3-4" growth of new leaves daily.this plant has not grown much in the last 3 weeks.

It's been a week so far,water is clear,plants are growing fast and the little bit of algae I had is gone.

riccia is ok.

Now for the 10gal.,30 watts 8-10 hours,no co2,ferts daily,plants are sword,red tiger lotus,ludwigia,and bolbitis,tiger barb fry,cherry shrimp and alot of hair algae.

I dosed this tank heavier to see what would happen.
5ml daily.
9/23/6 dosed at 10:00am and by 7:00pm algae shows signs of dying.fish and shrimp are fine.

9/24/6 riccia is dying off.All the algae dead.fish are fine.water is a little cloudy.

9/25/6 water is clear.I have a few strands of moss in this tank.I think it's java moss.It is growing very fast.

9/30/6 moss has grown around 10" this week.this moss has been in here for 8 months without much growth.The bolbitis is a little darker green and the leaves have widened.Looks healthier then it ever has.

Other than the riccia dying and the water turning cloudy one day it seems to work well.

If I notice anything else I'll add it to this post.

Allen
 
#4 ·
I'm really shocked by this. I mean I know that glutaraldehyde is a strong disinfectant used in hospital etc. It's also toxic. I'm really shocked that it doesn't harm the aquatic life. It's probably about the doses. This really interests me. Thank you and I'll be waiting for your next posts.
 
#5 ·
I was reading some companies MSDS sheet for it and it mentioned something like 'toxic to aquatic life in at .1 to 1.0mg/l for the most sensative species'. They never mentioned the species but a guess is that the cloudy water some get with high doses of excel is due to a die off of bacteria.

If I have done the math right (I probably have not;) ) then a 30 ml dose of 2% solution in 60 gallons is .26mg/l, pretty low on their "toxicity scale". That would lead me to belive that the most sensative organisms would be affected. Higher dosing woudl robably affect shrimp or snails, and lastly fish.

Using the same math, 5ml in 10 gallons is about .3mg/l. As I said though, I may not have converted to mg in a 2% solution correctly. I based my figuring on 100g/mol, or 10^5 mg/mol and assumed that one could figure a 2% mol solution in 1liter H2O. Please tell me if I am wrong.
 
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#16 ·
dennis said:
I was reading some companies MSDS sheet for it and it mentioned something like 'toxic to aquatic life in at .1 to 1.0mg/l for the most sensative species'. They never mentioned the species but a guess is that the cloudy water some get with high doses of excel is due to a die off of bacteria.

If I have done the math right (I probably have not;) ) then a 30 ml dose of 2% solution in 60 gallons is .26mg/l, pretty low on their "toxicity scale". That would lead me to belive that the most sensative organisms would be affected. Higher dosing woudl robably affect shrimp or snails, and lastly fish.

Using the same math, 5ml in 10 gallons is about .3mg/l. As I said though, I may not have converted to mg in a 2% solution correctly. I based my figuring on 100g/mol, or 10^5 mg/mol and assumed that one could figure a 2% mol solution in 1liter H2O. Please tell me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...
Assuming the 2% is weight-by-volume: 2% w/v = 2 grams / 100 mL

30 mL in 60 gallons:
(2 grams / 100 mL) * 30 mL = 0.6 grams in 30 mL of the 2% solution.
If you add it to 60 gallons of water, 60 gallons * 3.78 L / gallon = 226.8 L
0.6 grams / 226.8 = 0.26 mg/L

5 mL in 10 gallons: (Still 0.26 mg/L since the solution volume and tank size are both 5 times smaller)
(2 grams / 100 mL) * 5 mL = 0.1 grams in 5 mL of the 2% solution.
Adding it to 10 gallons = 37.8 L
0.1 grams / 37.8 L = 0.26 mg/L
 
#8 ·
Hoppy,

not sure if I follow how that relates, though it is amusing. If you are refering to using Excel as an "algae repellent or algaecide, that's not my intention. I really like excel but is very expensive in any quantity. If glutaraldehyde is an economical substitute, I'm all for it:)
 
#11 ·
I like Excel too, but when I hear of a tank that is always crystal clear without a bit of algae......well, it reminded me of George's testimonial to heating cables. Sorry, my laugh reflex gets out of synch sometimes.
 
5
#10 · (Edited)
I thought about doing this last summer, but I decided against it thinking that they glutaraldehyde polymer would be much less pungent smelling than normal glutaraldehyde, usually aldehydes, amines, and sulfur containing chemicals stink. On a scale of 1-10 how bad is the smell? A pharmacist can order this for you, the product PDcare is available in the compounding catalogs.

The wooziness is probably a direct result of the irritant on the cells your nose. There is a review article that goes into the effects it can have on medical personell that use the stuff all the time, and have high exposure.
 
#12 ·
Nice work Allen! I look forward to hearing more and getting some of the gluteraldehyde once you reveal your source :D

I do have a question though, is the Gluteraldehyde a 2.8% solution or are have you mixed it to obtain a 2.8% solution?
 
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#14 ·
Hi Matt

I did a search for glutaraldehyde and found a number of places that sell it online.The solution i ordered is 2.5%.There are other concentrations out there.The higher level of glutaraldehyde the more expensive it is.I chose this one to experiment with because of the price and it is diluted enough that I could dose straight from the bottle.

This is only the first week of using it so I not sure if there will be any problems with long term expose for the fish or plants.
 
#17 ·
allen said:
I did a search for glutaraldehyde and found a number of places that sell it online.The solution i ordered is 2.5%.There are other concentrations out there.The higher level of glutaraldehyde the more expensive it is.I chose this one to experiment with because of the price and it is diluted enough that I could dose straight from the bottle.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info. If all goes well this should be another big money sver for the hobby.

allen said:
This is only the first week of using it so I not sure if there will be any problems with long term expose for the fish or plants.
Click to expand...
I don't think you are going to have any problems as long as you keep the dosing similar to Excel. Assuming Epicfish's calculations are correct I think it is funny that the Riccia in the 10g had issues while the riccia in the larger tank did not. Do you think this may be because the gluteraldehyde was diluted more in the large tank due to the tank's height? Did yo add the gluteraldehyde directly over the Riccia in the 10g?
 
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#15 ·
The MSDS at Seachem clearly states that the major chemical in Flourish is glutaraldehyde. I doubt there will be long term effects with the use of only a 2.5% solution of glutaraldehyde

I think the increased concentration of glutaraldehyde is responsible for killing of 'fragile' algae when people dose 2x-5x the regular dose to get rid of algae.
 
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#20 ·
Urea - Science Kit and Boreal Laboratories seems pretty cheap, compared to a place like this: Urea, FCC

Seems like these stores carry pure urea crystals as well as prilled urea (pellet form). I don't know how pure the prilled form is, so let's assume I get the crystal form of urea.

2.5% urea = 2.5 grams / 100 mL water
mL water required = 500 grams * (100 mL water / 2.5 grams) = 20,000 mL = 20 liters

From the cheaper site, for $15.50 plus shipping, you can get 20 liters of 2.5% urea!! Heck, if the prilled form was water-soluble and pure, it'd only be $8.70 plus shipping for 20 liters.

Urea crystals, if stored in a dry environment, aren't prone to decomposition, while urea solution is. So of course you shouldn't mix up all 20 liters, maybe a couple hundred mLs at a time.
 
#24 ·
I guess you have found that Riccia doesn't like gluteraldehyde. I don't think I have ever overdosed a tank with Excel to see if it has the same effect on the Riccia. Looks like you may need to experiemtn with some Excel in the tanks for a few days :D

Gluteraldehyde may be a good idea for those looking to eradicate Riccia from their tanks assuming it does no harm to any of the other plants in your tank!
 
#25 ·
Is this the kind you are using? I can only seem to find gluteraldehyde solutions that say 28 day or 14 day formula. I wonder if that refers to the shelf life or to the reuseability. Many of the descriptions from different suppliers say reusable for the number of days. I just want to make sure I am not getting the wrong stuff.

I have also seen some listed as "activated". Does that make any difference?

Allan, what brand do you have? You can even PM me if you want.
 
#26 ·
I am slowly answering my own questions...

Cidex activated Dialdehyde solution info can be found here:
http://www.safety.vanderbilt.edu/pdf/hcs_msds/Cidexactivated_09_05.pdf#search="Cidex"

From what I can tell, the activated means it has a higher pH, probably for better microbe killing. I don't know. The shelf life appears to be "chemically stable" under proper storage, ie 59-86degrees F. This product contains 97.45% water and 2.55% gluteraldehyde by weight.

I wonder if it makes a difference to our purposes if it is activated or if the day use applies to use or to re-using it stuff in a medical setting?

Now to see about pricing/shipping.
 
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#27 ·
Matt,do you have any riccia i could have to try with the excel.All of mine is wiped out.

Dennis,that is not the same brand but the discription is the same(28 day glutaraldehyde,activated diadehyde).I beleive the 28 or 14 day formula refers to how long the solution is good for after you mix in the activator that comes with it.That is for sterilization of medical equipment.What I did was not add the activator and dose the glutaraldehyde straight from the gallon jug.
 
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#29 ·
Glutaraldehyde - The Highest Purity

25% solution
0-18ºC 16220 Box 10x10ml ampoules 21.00

You can do a 1:9 dilution (10 mL glutaraldehyde to 90 mL of water) to give you 100 mL of 2.5% solution per ampule. That's 1 liter of glutaraldehyde for $21 + shipping. Although some other places might sell bulk for less (not sure, haven't checked) this type of packaged glutaraldehyde is preferable since each ampule is packed in inert nitrogen so there's no breakdown or adverse reactions since it's not exposed to air/oxygen. You can mix up 100 mL batches and dose them as needed so you won't waste much of it.

Heck, if you have larger tanks...
0-18ºC 16521 50% Solution 4x1 liter 67.00

1 liter solution to 19 liters of water will give 20 liters of a 2.5% solution. This is 4x1liters of glutaraldehyde, so you'll get 80 liters. For $67 + shipping. Less than a buck per gallon!

I'm not sure why the riccia is dying. Are you dosing straight into the tank? I suspect that if the entire bunch of riccia is being hit with too concentrated a solution of glutaraldehyde, the fine plantlets won't be able to recover & will die slowly. Try to add the glutaraldehyde in a very diluted form.

Allen, you said the riccia died slower in the 60 gallon tank. I think it's because as you added the glutaraldehyde, it was more easily diluted in the 60 gallons before it hit the riccia as opposed to the 10 gallon tank.

Maybe when you do a WC next time, add the dosage into a bucket of water instead of dosing straight into the tank. Or you can try adding a bit at a time, throughout the entire length of the tank and avoiding the patches of riccia?

I'm looking forward to the remainder if your experiments!
 
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#87 ·
:Cry:Holy Cow.....shipping is way high. I innocently ordered 1 liter of the 50% solution at 19.50. Web site said it would ship UPS ground and exact charges would be billed.
Well I got billed $27.33 for shipping. When I could get my breath, I called them. Evidently, in the summer it is their practice to ship overnight in ice. No small print to be found. They apologized but the deed was done. Just a word to the wise. They said shelf life was 2 years as long as it didn't get too hot.
 
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#30 ·
Google cache. I can't find the original thread. Or rather, haven't looked for it.

PlantedFanatics.com :: View topic - Effects of Seachem Flourish Excel on BBA

Conclusion

The effects of Seachem Flourish Excel on BBA were documented with images and texts. It shows that Seachem Flourish Excel caused the BBA to turned red within 24 hours. The BBA gradually turned white over 120 Hours and disintegrate slowly thereafter.The experiment shows that Seachem Flourish Excel has successfully eliminated BBA. We would advise that Seachem Flourish Excel should not be use as a permanent way of removing BBA, as solving the root of the problem is the key to prevent future outbreak. We realised that Flourish Excel should not be used in large amount on mosses, riccia, and fissidens. It may cause them to turn brown or even kill them.

So MatPat, high doses of Excel *will* kill riccia. =)
 
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#35 ·
epicfish said:
Google cache. I can't find the original thread. Or rather, haven't looked for it.

PlantedFanatics.com :: View topic - Effects of Seachem Flourish Excel on BBA

Conclusion

The effects of Seachem Flourish Excel on BBA were documented with images and texts. It shows that Seachem Flourish Excel caused the BBA to turned red within 24 hours. The BBA gradually turned white over 120 Hours and disintegrate slowly thereafter.The experiment shows that Seachem Flourish Excel has successfully eliminated BBA. We would advise that Seachem Flourish Excel should not be use as a permanent way of removing BBA, as solving the root of the problem is the key to prevent future outbreak. We realised that Flourish Excel should not be used in large amount on mosses, riccia, and fissidens. It may cause them to turn brown or even kill them.

So MatPat, high doses of Excel *will* kill riccia. =)
Click to expand...
I concur and have done this personally. It will even kill shrimp and snails if dosed too high for too long.
 
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#31 ·
After looking in the CRC handbook for possible polycyclo compounds, I'm guessing the side-chains in the polycycloglutaracetal (active compound) of Excel seems to make it less toxic. Not sure if the cyclo side chains actually allow for more carbon molecules per molecule of the polycyclo compound, but it makes the compound less toxic and/or prolongs the shelf-life.
 
#33 ·
OCHCH2CH2CH2CHO
I would think so, logically. It would seem that activation would kick off an H or OH, possibly then forming longer chains through a C=C double bond. This should make it more stable and less toxic, plus more alkaline?

Yes, no?
 
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