mats808

Thanks Ebichua.

Tex Gal

How would not slushing the pots around make a difference? The ADA AS released the ammonia. Wether it's in pots or out of pots shouldn't make a difference, it seems. While the "slushing" might mix what is being trapped between the soil particles a little faster, I don't understand how it would keep it from releasing the ammonia.

I did do an experiment with ADA AS 2 before I put it in my tank and it took weeks to get the Ammonia down. I put it in tubs first, doing water changes and then into my tank. Moving to the tank from the tubs didn't result in an ammonia spike. The spike had resolved before I moved it.

Sorry if I jumped the gun on you mats808! I can see how you would be concerned with fish that expensive. If I were you I'd just test for Ammonia and take corrective action if any was found, like fast growing stems, water changes, extra dosing of prime, amino carb... etc, unless these are contra-indicated by your fish type.

mats808

thanks Texgal

lauraleellbp

My understanding from reading Tom Barr's work with ADA AS is that there is a very high organic content to these substrates, and the ammonia is from the decomposition of these into an uncycled water column. Once the tank and substrate has an established N-bacteria colony then the ammonia levels are no longer an issue as they are converted ate the rate of decomposition. Unless, as pointed out, the substrate is signficantly disturbed, which may cause a spike from too much ammonia released into the water column at once.

Left C

Gosh ... there has been so many bad things said about Amazonia II the past few months, but not the original Amazonia. I'm not going into any details. A simple search will let you know about this product.

mats808

Hi lauraleellbp,
According to Ebichua, amazonia II only leaches out ammonia in the intitial stages. If it did so on a long term basis this would be a problem even after a tank is established. True, the ammonia would be broken down into nitrites, then nitrates but this would increase the ammount of water changes you would have to make. I'm sure you know this but too much nitrates are bad for fish, not just ammonia. Ammonia is the enemy, I still believe that no one would make a product that consistently leaches ammonia into the water. If it's just in the beginning, that's not too bad, maybe even a benefit (for cycling purposes), but on a long term basis I think that would be a problem.
aaron

lauraleellbp

At the point where all the organics have finished decomposing then the substrate would no longer be of benefit to the plants. How long it would/will take the substrate to reach this point would be entirely variable from tank to tank especially depending on the plantload.

Once the tank and ADA AS has cycled there should be no measurable ammonia left in the water column. I'm hearing reports that this initial cycle can take from a few weeks to a few months to occur. (I havent yet personally started cycling my batch of Amazonia II so I've no basis for comparison.)

However, N-bacteria populations will adjust to the amount of ammonia available to them, so AS continuing to decompse and leech ammonia over the long term is not an issue as long as the levels don't spike suddenly. The AS serves as a continual ammonia source same as do the livestock in the tank. Plants tend to favor ammonia absorbtion to nitrAtes so also are a good buffer to prevent levels from becoming toxic. NitrAte levels becoming toxic also would depend on the plantload. Regular water changes are a part of most hobbyists routine (unless the goal is an NPT) so should keep nitrAtes in check even if the plants alone do not.

It's not uncommon to get an ammonia spike from disturbing any planted tank substrate. Part of why it's generally a good idea to do a large water change after any major rescape.

mats808

lauraleellbp,
Like I said, I realize that nitrifying bacteria will first break down ammonia into nitrites then nitrates but I still don't think it's a good idea for a substrate to leach ammonia into the water over the long term. The substrate can continue to leach many things that might be beneficial to plants so it won't be useless just because it doesn't leach ammonia.

We get more than enough ammonia from the fish we keep. In fact there are several products that try to get rid of ammonia, nitrites, and/or nitrates.....this is also one of the reasons we do regular water changes.

If you kept a planted tank with no fish or shrimp maybe I can see ammonia being beneficial but most people are going to be keeping at least some fish. I can't see why anyone would make a product that consistently leaches ammonia into the water. If this was such a good idea wouldn't everyone be dosing ammonia on a weekly basis. There is Flourish everything, why no "Flourish Ammonia"? In fact if you go to the Seachem website and read about "Flourish Nitrogen" you'll see that they went out of their way not to include ammonia. They use ammonium. Heres a quote, "However, no free ammonia is released because the ammonium in Flourish Nitrogen™ is complexed and unavailable until utilized by the plants."

True there may be some hard core aquatic plant hobbyist that only keep plants and so they don't have enough ammonia for their plants but I think most hobbyist who have a planted tank will definitely be keeping fish. Among those I'll bet that most of them will want enough fish in their tanks to supply more than enough ammonia. I actually worked in a pet shop when I first graduated high school and the one common theme amongst the masses was wanting more fish in their tanks, not less. Companies must appeal to the masses. Why would a company make a product that releases ammonia into the water when most people already have too much fish and therefore too much ammonia to begin with?

hoppycalif

A heavily planted tank, that has healthy growing plants in it, will not have ammonia problems either from the fish or, especially, from ADA Aquasoil. The plants will use the slowly released ammonia as fertilizer before it can do any harm. Aquasoil, when first set up in a tank, can release more ammonia than the plants can use, but only for a few weeks at most. This small problem is handled by doing twice a week or so water changes. Aquasoil is widely acknowledged to be the best substrate for growing plants that has ever been sold to the public. I don't know how much better than other substrates it is, but it is enough that everyone using it raves about the improved plant growth. (I haven't yet tried it myself.)

A planted tank, with an adequate number of healthy plants will not have problems at all with excess nitrates unless you just dump big doses of nitrate in the tank, then never change the water. No fertilizing method I have read about would cause you to have enough nitrates to be a problem.

Ammonia, NH3, and ammonium, NH4+ are referred to interchangeably by most of us. Neither is something to add to the tank without knowing what you are doing and being very careful. Ammonia, NH3, is a gas under normal temperature and pressure, so none of us will be adding it to a tank in any case.

mats808

Hi Hoppycalif,
I don't know if I gave the wrong impression. I like aquasoil. I use it to grow many plants. My Cryptocoryne cordata 'Rosanervig' really loves it and grows quite well in it. I have no complaints with aquasoil.

All I'm saying is that:

1. I really don't think it would be good for a substrate to leach ammonia on a long term basis.
2. I really don't think that aquasoil does this.

I've already said that I can see how in certain circumstances leaching ammonia could be a 'good' thing. But I think not in most cases and I also think that a good portion of aquasoil sales are to those who definitely don't need anything creating more ammonia than the fish and/or shrimp that they alreading have in their planted tank.

This is strictly my opinion through experience of having worked in a pet shop and communicating with local hobbyist for the last 20 years or so. Lets take a 20 gallon planted tank. The average person could easily be keeping 30 or so cardinal tetras in there, plus some Otos, maybe some shrimp. Personally I prefer to keep very few fish (1 breeding pair or breeding group/tank) but in my experience many aquarist like to keep as many fish as they can in their aquarium. Now in this example do you think that the aquarium needs any more ammonia at all?

I've grown some of my nicest plants with very little fish in the aquarium. Granted they were low light plants that are easy to grow but they grew "perfect" with no algae at all even on the oldest of leaves. I believe that at least part of the reason was that the entire 50 breeder only had 4 Otocinclus in it, and so there was very llittle ammonia.

Also, I've looked everywhere and ADA never once mentions that aquasoil leaches ammonia. Don't you agree that this is something that would have come up by now? Why no mention of it?

Now I'm not saying that I know for sure that it doesn't. I'm just saying that in theory I think it would be a mistake if it does. We could always email them and ask.

aaron