mats808

Yes, that is a much better example. Like I tried to explain it doesn't matter if that wasn't a lot of shrimp for the tank.....you had a bacteria colony that matched the amount of shrimp that you had....when you removed all of the gravel you lost a considerable amount of that bacteria and there was no longer enough to keep up with the same load of ammonia being produced. Earlier in this thread some other people (NOT ME) also mentioned that stirring up the gravel may also cause an ammonia spike. I assume that this happened when you removed your old gravel.

Anyways, like I said earlier, we already came to the conclusion that aquasoil leaches ammonia during the initial stages before you joined this thread. So far it seems that everyone also kind of agrees that it does not continue to leach ammonia after the intial period which is what my concern was.

If you read the entire thread you should have noticed that I was merely asking questions becuase the whole ammonia thing seemed illogical. Eventually it seemed like everyone was in agreement that aquasoil only leaches ammonia during the intial stages which I felt could actually be beneficial. At first it seemed like everyone was saying that it would leach the ammonia forever. Once we cleared that up the discussion was pretty much over.

When you entered the thread I was just letting you know that by removing all of your gravel you no longer had enough nitrifying bacteria to keep up with of all of your shrimp. Like i said we already came to the conclusion that it leaches ammonia during the intial stages.

Then you started saying things like, how many people (that have actually used aquasoil) have to tell me this or that, and how much clearer of an example do I need to illustrate the point. And I really just found that funny. First of all it's a point that was already agreed upon. Second, I do use aquasoil, which you should have known if you read the thread. And lastly you really don't understand exactly how the nitrogen cycle works so you can't see why your example wasn't really the best.

Like I said, I use aquasoil too, but you're the one with the dead shrimp....not me.

mats808

bsmith782,
I wasn't even going to respond to your post because like I mentioned we had already discussed the whole ammonia thing. The only reason that I did was because I didn't want a beginning aquarist to read your post and conclude that the aquasoil leached all of the ammonia that caused your problems. But then you started talking down to me like you wanted an arguement.

I just didn't want a beginner to think that as long as they use 'normal gravel' (not aquasoil) it is a good idea to do what you did. True, maybe with different types of gravel the problem wouldn't of been as bad. Maybe without a substrate that is also adding to the problem enough new bacteria would've grown in before any real problems occured. However it's still not a very good idea to remove an established gravel bed and assume that no problems like this might occur.

Don't get me wrong. I put fish into brand new tanks all the time and pretty much never have any loses. Often times these are wild fish....some of them are known to be quite delicate species. But I change the water daily or when necesary and monitor them very closely. Having said this, I still don't consider this ideal and wouldn't recommend it to others.

I just don't think what you did was a really good idea, with aquasoil or any substrate for that matter.

bsmith782

One of the reasons I posted after 5 pages of other people telling you AS leached ammonia was to give you some of my first had experience with it. Because it seemed to me that you couldnt comprehend why ADA would sell a product that would do that with out stating it. Even though they did and they do.

Another was because I didnt want someone to purchase AS and make the same mistake I did. Put it in the tank (espicially with N sensitive inverts) and have the vast majority perish.

I feel I have made my point. Do not put AS I or II in your tank unless it has been depleted of all Ammonia unless it is void of any fauna..

Also FYI I do understand the Nitrogen Cycle. Because I was ignorant to the fact that AS would leach ammonia in my tank intitialy and caused many of my shrimp to die the first time I used it. That proves I didnt know that about the AS. I could have had 10 established cannister filters/refugiums on that tank and it still would not have been able to cope with the Ammonia OD form the AS.

mats808

Hey bsmith782,
I'm not trying to argue with you but in regards to the 10 cannister filter thing. You could have a million cannister filters.....you would still only have the right ammount of nitrifying bacteria for your bio load. Whether they are in 1 cannister filter or split up between 10 still basically the same overall ammount. There would be a balance between the shrimp and the bacteria. Having more filters doesn't give you more bacteria...it just gives you more space for potential bacteria to eventually grow if the bio-load is increased.

lauraleellbp

Mat, I strongly encourage you to stir up your AS 6 months after it's finished cycling, and take an ammonia reading the next day.

Make sure to remove all your livestock first.

Then draw your own conclusions about AS leeching ammonia over a long period of time.

Personally, I'm willing to rely on others' experiences with this product to not need to replicate the experiment myself.

The decomposition of organics = ammonia. If you by any chance do NOT get an ammonia spike, then it would be extremely logical to conclude that you have managed to "exhaust" the organic nutrient supply in that batch of AS.

The only issue is what rate that ammonia is leeched into the water column versus the rate of conversion by N-bacteria and uptake by plants. This rate will be different from tank to tank.

mats808

Hi Laura,
Before I start I really want to stress that I am not arguing with you......but can you please clarify a few things for me?

Through reading this thread I was under the impression that people were saying that aquasoil only leached ammonia in the intial stages (1-2 months or so?). I figured that this could make sense since it would allow you to cycle your aquarium before actually adding fish. Now that I've read your post it seems like you are saying that it leaches ammonia forever but that this isn't a problem once your nitrogen cycle is in full swing because it will be converted into nitrites, nitrates and then used by your plants. It also seems like you are saying that in the event that aquasoil does stop leaching ammonia, at that point it has been 'exhausted'. Kind of like you want the ammonia.

I was under the impression that people were saying that after the first month or so it stops leaching ammonia, not that it continues to do so but that the ammonia just gets converted into nitrates and then it is used by the plants.

I know that in an aquarium with vast ammounts of thriving fast growing plants and very few fish there may not be enough ammonia and so I can see where this might be beneficial. But I think that most would agree that the majority of planted aquariums have more than enough fish/shrimps/snails etc. to produce enough ammonia to supply all their plant's needs. In fact there is often too much ammonia and therefore a buildup of nitrates which we remove with our weekly, monthly, etc. water changes.

That's why I find it so hard to believe that Amano would make a product that permanently leaches ammonia or leaches ammonia for any considerable ammount of time. In the vast majority of cases which is most of Amano's clients there is more than enough ammonia it doesn't make sense to create a product that makes more. If this was such a good idea wouldn't we see other manufacturers creating "liquid ammonia" to fertilize our tanks?

lauraleellbp

You are understanding what I am saying correctly.

Ammonia = plant food. ADA's major emphasis is on planted tanks. Fish tend to be secondary. Some ADA tanks are entirely fish-less. ADA AS must be cycled properly in order to be safe for livestock, and if disturbed, may release toxic amounts of ammonia and nitrite into the water column. This is actually true of most substrates, but especially AS.

Given time and stability, N-bacteria populations will regulate themselves according to the amount of ammonia in a tank. Otherwise, our water columns would always yield ammonia readings from the ongoing ammonia being produced by the fish.

Organic decomposition = ammonia = plant food. ADA AS is a great plant substrate b/c it's so high in organic content.

Once decomposition in a soil substrate has stopped then that soil's nutrient content is very depleted (depending on the soil's CEC).

Do you thoroughly understand the nitrogen cycle? N- bacteria convert ammonia into nitrite, and then nitrite into nitrate. Plants are able to use the nitrogen in any and all 3 of these compounds. The first 2 are the most toxic to fish, nitrates are the least toxic. Without any source of nitrogen in the tank, the plants would die.

In low tech tanks, the ammonia from the fish is often enough to feed the plants, and between the direct removal by plants and conversion by N-bacteria into nitrates, the water column in a healthy tank should always read 0ppm ammonia. In high tech tanks, plant growth will quickly outstrip the amount of fish waste, and therefore nitrogen must be added through ferts. Because of the nitrogen content in ADA AS, plants have yet another source of nitrogen besides what is in the water column.

If you had no desire to keep livestock in a planted tank, then dosing liquid ammonia would be a great idea, as long as you didn't overdo it. Plants actually have to expend more energy to utilize nitrAtes over ammonia.

mats808

HI Laura,

Yes, I've always understood the nitrogen cycle. I actually wrote about ammonia being converted into nitrites then nitrates in an earlier post (maybe like page 4 or 5 of this thread).

I also do know that ammonia is the most toxic out of the 3. That's kind of my whole point. In that same post I referred to Seachem's product which doses nitrogen. I made referrence to the fact that on their website they actually go out of their way to let everyone know that their product has no ammonia. That's kind of why I found it interesting that one company (Seachem) purposely tries not to include it and another (ADA) would want it to leach from its aquasoil.

As far as some ADA tanks being totally fishless, I haven't seen every aquarium that Amano has planted but from memory I can't remember a single one that doesn't have fish or shrimps in it. I've seen a few 'amano style' aquariums planted by hobbyists with no fish or shrimps but none that Amano has produced.

lauraleellbp

Check out the AquaJournal link in this thread:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...formation.html

Homer_Simpson

ADA AS II in a 15 gallon high tank with DIY c02 injection still in testing phases but pretty stable(no algae, kuhli loach and SAE is still alive, plants are doing reasonably well, no major ammonia spikes). Tank was set up around Jan 08.

Although I cannot 100% scientifically confirm why this may be, I suspect the great mass of floating plants(riccia, cardamine, etc.,) combined with 50% weekly water change and minimal feeding may be the difference maker in sucking up any ammonia and preventing major spikes. I do dose phosphate, potassium and trace minerals as per Tom Barr's Estimative Index.

If you plan to try AS I or II, maintain a very high plant density, especially floating plant mass. If you can do this and keep low light plants that will not suffer as much from the light blockage caused by the heavy plant mass, you may be okay. I can only speak from my own testing and experience. I did not post this to start any arguments, or war of words. Take it FWIW.