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Old 08-03-2003, 08:42 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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do you guys use this... and also are tanins good for the plants and fish?
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Old 08-03-2003, 08:42 PM   #2 (permalink)
 
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do you guys use this... and also are tanins good for the plants and fish?
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Old 08-04-2003, 02:47 AM   #3 (permalink)
 
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If you mean peat I have used it in the past. If you are trying to breed some wild blackwater fish you have to use it to get them to breed. Normally most of us will avoid using peat as it messes with the pH/kH/CO2 chart.

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Old 08-04-2003, 05:32 AM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Yes, peat messes with the pH/KH/CO2 chart, but it messes with it in a totally predictable manner. If you want to use peat, and you want to add CO2, there is no reason why you can't do both. There are reasons why you need to consider peat carefully in your plans, and depending upon what exactly you are doing with the peat, this may be one place where a pH controller adds value to the setup. Nevertheless, CO2 concentrations can be predicted accurately with or without peat addition to the water.

If you are intent on adding peat and CO2, and want to know how to do it, I can explain.
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Old 08-04-2003, 06:04 AM   #5 (permalink)
 
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@ gsmollin :

the pH/KH/CO2 relation is totally messed up by the use of peat. why do you think you can still predict the CO2 levels ?

@ bebop :

rather accidental I read today an article which said the tanins can act as chelators. That would explain why plants can benefit from peat filtering.

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Old 08-04-2003, 05:58 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by perrush:
@ gsmollin :

the pH/KH/CO2 relation is totally messed up by the use of peat. why do you think you can still predict the CO2 levels ?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What makes you think that? I don't think I can measure CO2 levels with peat in the water. I KNOW I can measure CO2 levels with peat in the water. I have done it for quite some time. It's very simple. However, every time I post this information, I get no response, so I have become reluctant to bother. I may even have the original work I did on this problem, and posted over at Tom's. If you are really interested, I can get it for you.
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Old 08-04-2003, 06:14 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If you're injecting CO2 at a certain level into a non-peat-filtered tank, wouldn't you have the same CO2 concentration if you just added peat to the filter's media chamber--just at a lower pH? Or am I taking too simple a view of this?


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Old 08-04-2003, 06:18 PM   #8 (permalink)
 
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I would be interested to see your work gsmollin. Feel free to post.

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Old 08-04-2003, 10:42 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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@ gsmollin :

would be interesting to know how you calculate your CO2 from KH and pH readings when have peat in the water.

As I see it you add extra buffers with peatfiltering. So thse extra buffers will take up some H+ which comes free when CO2 dissolve and therefore the pH won't show as much change as without the peat.

Problem is that you don't how how much tanins there are in the water and that you don't know at which pH they interfere.

But I'm always open to suggestions

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Old 08-05-2003, 02:57 AM   #10 (permalink)
 
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2la:
If you're injecting CO2 at a certain level into a non-peat-filtered tank, wouldn't you have the same CO2 concentration if you just added peat to the filter's media chamber--just at a lower pH? Or am I taking too simple a view of this?

http://www.picturetrail.com/2la


(Click for pics)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. That's all there is to it. Adding peat changes both KH and pH, but it has no effect on CO2. The real understanding, however, is that the relationship between KH, pH, peat, or any other source of hydrogen ions, and CO2 is
linear. What this means is that we can separate their contributions by appropriate experiments. I have done these experiments, and can post the experimental procedures, if anyone is interested in that. For now, I will give you the upshot:

You can measure pH, KH and compute "apparent" CO2 in the water, with the CO2 OFF in your tank. You will get a number. Let's say that number is 15 ppm. You also know that the water contains 3 ppm CO2 equilibrium level. This means that the peat is adding 12 ppm "CO2 equivalent" of acid to the water. Now you start CO2 injection and read pH, KH again. You look at the chart and it says 30 ppm. Subtract the 12 ppm from the 30 ppm, get 18 ppm. That is how much CO2 you have now.

One of the difficult parts here is the starting and stopping of CO2, and gathering of readings. You will need to take a lot of readings to get an understanding of the settling time of your aquarium, and its cyclic variations during the day/night. I spent several days with the CO2 OFF, then days more with it ON. However, this is effort well spent, becasue it allows you to add peat to your water, or like me, to add CO2 to an old aquarium that has reached a point where it is like a black water swamp without any peat.
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