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Old 09-20-2008, 05:25 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: CO2 system suggestions for a 75gl tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by chagovatoloco View Post
It's ok ray, we don't agree with you either.
Believe it or not there are a few pioneers and experts in the hobby that are on here, some of the best in the country(no I do not think I am one). We are not all idiots. With some listening and humility you might learn something.
You are right! I'm crazy and the photos of my tank are nothing but figments of my schizoid insanity. I never had Oto cats, Neon tetras or any other fish species breed in my tank. I’m insane because I’m planning to introduce Cabomba furcata in my tank.
Here is my plea! If you actually OWN a pH controller like I do then speak up!
If you don't own one, then how can you criticise/praise it?

Last edited by ray-the-pilot; 09-20-2008 at 05:39 PM..
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Old 09-20-2008, 05:37 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: CO2 system suggestions for a 75gl tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newt View Post
KIS = keep it simple. As Houseofcards and others said, its just another thing to keep up and another item that could break.
How simple is this.

I set my drop counter to a level that gives me 20 ppm CO2. I set my pH meter to 6.7. When I go to sleep the pH is 6.7 and CO2 is 18 ppm. When I wake up the pH is 6.7 the CO2 is 18 ppm. I’m at full lights and my plants are cranking out tons of O2 (without a controller the pH will go up as high as 8.0) the pH of my tank is 6.7 and CO2 is 18ppm. My pH controller dies, pH increases with plant photosynthesis gradually to 8. (Same a when you run out of CO2).

OK what is simpler?
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Old 09-20-2008, 05:56 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: CO2 system suggestions for a 75gl tank

I'm sorry ray, did you start the estimative index. Or may be the 4dkh water for drop checkers? Was it you that with years of testing came up with the wpg rule? Was adding co2 in to planted aquariums your Idea? (once again I am not referring to my self) That is how one gets to jedi level. Just because some one dose not post that the have a ph controller does not mean that they do not have on and have never used one. Most do have more than one tank, there are even a few on here with rooms and basements full of tanks.

If I may quote a jedi

Controllers
by Thomas Barr <tcbiii/yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001

> I think Dave was questioning the policy of using a pH
> controller, not the
> technical details. His question is (and it's a good one);
> your fish
> don't need it, your plants don't need it, so why do you need
> it?
>
> Two possible reasons come to mind. You can get it to help
> prevent
> end-of-tank dumps. Or you could get it to keep CO2 from
> getting too high
> at night. I suppose you could also get one to amuse yourself
> or to
> relieve yourself of some heavy and otherwise useless cash.

Roger's notions are echoed here. But a pH controller can kill as
easily as an end of tank dump which if you have a needle valve
doesn't happen in any tank I've seen ever.

A pH controlled tank has a higher bubble rate than a tank with
such a controller. It throttles between the higher rate and
shutting off the flow of gas in most set ups utilizing a
solinoid. If it didn't do this and have a higher set rate than a
non controlled CO2 set up then you'd never have it turning on
and off or at least very little. It could never catch up to the
pH set rate if you get it too close, so all have been set higher
than the normal non-controlled bubble rate(no controller-just
setting the needle valve to get a stable pH.). You can use the
powerhead also to "turn" on or off the CO2(this will overdose
your system byitself but does waste gas) or both in conjunction.
Most folks go with a solinoid since it saves on gas usage
supposedly(I disagree with this idea that it really uses
less-the tank still needs the same amount of CO2 for the
plants). If you set a gas tank plus a needle valve properly it
will do as good as any controller set up. If the solinoid sticks
open as at least 3 have that I personally know of(-not all were
FW plant tanks, one was salt)you will have too much CO2 being
added non stop.....this is as bad as an end O tank dump and
can/has killed fish etc. This is **rare** as is the probe
falling out etc but it does and can happen. Solinoids can stick
open. Another item that I find useless....
My point is if you have $ burn it's fine. Fish don't care,
plants don't either. But I have both and see little if any
difference in actual pH ranges(the controller experieces lag
times) so why blow another 100+$ and 40-90$ for a solinoid and
have a more complex set up that is set to over dose if your
controls are messed up by some accident, even if rare? A needle
valve is pretty darn reliable by itself. Simple and cost less
and can be easily adjusted by a very simple turn of the knob, no
soliniod needed and no "another piece of crap to plug in". I
estimated how much CO2 gas a soliniod would save me to justify a
40-50$ soliniod. It's like 5-to 10 years or so. I can live with
that but that's not including the electric. I think the usage
based on a 1/2 open usage came to about 3+$ a year here in CA
where the cost for electric is ever so cheap....

Folks should with either/any system have good even mixing and
flow. This will give a much more even & accurate pH and
therefore indicate a truer CO2 level with reduced lag times.
Regards,
Tom Barr


(Tom, I hope you don't mind me quoting you here)

Like I said listen and learn, by the way being a scientist is also a good way to gain jedi status.
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Old 09-20-2008, 06:27 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: CO2 system suggestions for a 75gl tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by chagovatoloco View Post
Controllers
by Thomas Barr <tcbiii/yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001

> I think Dave was questioning the policy of using a pH
> controller, not the
> technical details.
................
..............
Like I said listen and learn, by the way being a scientist is also a good way to gain jedi status.
Didn't want to waste band width by including the whole of the quote but it is perfectly obvious that Tom Barr had never used a modern pH controller at that point otherwise he would at least have known how they work.

Here is a fact. If your pH controller fails it is the same thing as running out of CO2. If your pH meter goes out of wack, you have a plain vanilla CO2 system with no controller just like every one else.

I thought that Jedi were open to new experience.

Again here is the challenge! Anyone who actually OWNS a pH controller is welcome to speak up otherwise how do you know what you are talking about.

BTW I am a scientist. Been one for quite some time. My background is in Chemistry/Biology. But I consider myself an intermediate in this hobby.
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Old 09-20-2008, 06:40 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: CO2 system suggestions for a 75gl tank

I think it is possible and desirable to disagree with someone and do it with good humor. We all know various things about this hobby, from experience, from experimenting, and from research. But, we don't all interpret what we know the same way. There is plenty of room for multiple interpretations.
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Old 09-20-2008, 10:43 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: CO2 system suggestions for a 75gl tank

Personally, I like not using one, as it allows oxygen levels to increase at night, when plants and fish need it. Injecting CO2 without light makes very little sense to me. As a scientist Ray, wouldn't you agree?
CO2 is a fertilizer, not a pH balancing agent, so why treat it as such? fluctuating pH is not harmful.
At the very least, it's just wasting CO2.

And as for my 2 cents, I don't think they were personally attacking your decision to buy one Ray. And asking that only people who own one to give input is a little silly. I don't own a substrate heater, but I can tell you using one is ineffective. Similarly, using the reasons stated above, I can give many reasons for not using a pH controller.


Hoppy - as always, very well said.
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Old 09-21-2008, 01:21 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: CO2 system suggestions for a 75gl tank

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Originally Posted by Indignation View Post
Personally, I like not using one, as it allows oxygen levels to increase at night, when plants and fish need it. Injecting CO2 without light makes very little sense to me. As a scientist Ray, wouldn't you agree?
CO2 is a fertilizer, not a pH balancing agent, so why treat it as such? fluctuating pH is not harmful.
At the very least, it's just wasting CO2.

And as for my 2 cents, I don't think they were personally attacking your decision to buy one Ray. And asking that only people who own one to give input is a little silly. I don't own a substrate heater, but I can tell you using one is ineffective. Similarly, using the reasons stated above, I can give many reasons for not using a pH controller.
Let’s see if I can make something clear here. This thread started with someone who asked about pH controllers. A whole bunch of people (none of whom actually own such a device) chimed in and told him/her that they are “no good”/”not worth it.” Now I actually own a pH controller and think it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Those people who don’t own one make up stuff about pH controllers to prove they are no good. I own one and see that they don’t know what they are talking about because what they say is laughably ignorant.
Now this is science. What I say about ph controllers come from my actual experience with the equipment. These are facts.
The stuff you get from people who never owned one is just ignorance, superstition and hearsay. If they were scientific they would quote from someone who actually owned or tested one.

I am not trying to antagonize you but your post is typical of the other posts. It is someone making stuff up based on what they think pH controllers do without actually having used or researched them. Let me point out some typical misconceptions:

“Injecting CO2 without light makes very little sense to me. As a scientist Ray, wouldn't you agree?”

The controller only goes on when there is a demand for CO2 which is typically at full lights. As far as I know (and I’ve checked it a number of times because I was concerned about this myth) it never (rarely) goes on at night.

“CO2 is a fertilizer, not a pH balancing agent, so why treat it as such? fluctuating pH is not harmful.”

CO2 is part of the CO2/HCO3/CO3 buffer system which is practically the only inorganic buffer system available. It is your opinion (which is not supported by a lot of fish keeping people) that fluctuating pH is not harmful. Even if you are right, what does it matter if someone wants to maintain control over the environment of their aquarium in a way that includes pH.

Here is the choice. You can believe ignorance superstition and hearsay or you can ask some one who knows. If you actually own one I’d really like to hear about your experience!
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Old 09-21-2008, 05:27 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: CO2 system suggestions for a 75gl tank

If you stop injecting CO2 at night, or any other time, the amount dissolved in the water will drop, possibly slowly, depending on how much surface disturbance you have. If the pH controller really does maintain a near constant pH, and I have no doubt that it does, then it has to allow some CO2 to flow periodically at night as well as during the lights on time. Every morning my drop checker shows a higher pH than it showed during the previous day, so I know my tank, at least, does lose CO2 at night. I purposely keep some surface disturbance to increase oxygen absorption and to deplete the CO2 at night a little quicker.

In a fish only tank there is no CO2 injection to make the pH change. In fact the pH should remain virtually constant unless something generated in the tank makes it change. And, if that happens, the substance making it change is adding to the TDS, and may even be harmful itself to the fish. So, for a fish only tank maintaining a steady pH is desirable. It is easy and cheap to measure pH, compared to measuring TDS or a concentration of "bad" substances, so for many years it has been recommended to maintain a constant and sometimes even a specific pH in a fish only tank.
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Old 09-21-2008, 08:02 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: CO2 system suggestions for a 75gl tank

Any help and advice about this system and any other possible system is very, very welcome!

This was originally posted. Now I thoroughly researched them and made my decision not to purchase one. Just because I went the opposite way you did dose not make my advise in valid. The same way that you making your decision dose not make you advise better. I chose to follow those "who are truly better than me" and I have learned much. I know that amano and tom barr don't use them and with good reason(not because they can't afford them). So I chose no to reinvent the wheel by learning the same thing my self. Much like the poster I do have money to buy what ever I like, some things are not worth it. This is my opinion and I am allowed to express and have it. Truth is owning some thing means just that, It dose not and will never make you and expert on it. I do love you though ray, you hold you ground no matter what!!! And with such vigilance.....WOW!!

fabrizio- this is where I get some of my information

"Fish keeping does not add CO2 to control pH though.
They use buffers like baking soda.

When the pH drops fast, it's a sign of some cycling going very wrong in a fish only tank, when you add say 4 Kh more baking soda to a 2 Kh tank, the fish will die and the pH will shoot up fast.

CO2 is not the same.

Think about this thought question:

What happens if I do a massive 60-70% weekly water change when I add CO2 and have a pH of 6.2, and the incoming tap is 7.6?

How much pH change do I see over a few minutes?
About 1 full unit.

The KH is the same with respect to the tap water and the tank water.
So the osmotic difference is the same, CO2 is not a salt.

Now, think about what folks do using CO2 and in planted tanks with 50% weekly water changes......

Any reports of dead fish?
None.
Healthy happy fish and plants?
Yes.

I'll let you ponder the rest and see how pH, at least in and of itself is not really the issue, rather the KH/buffering systems that change rapidly, and thereby also by definition, change the pH, are the real issue with respect to fish health.

Fish hobbyist hardly know beans about GH, KH, and chemistry of the pH/KH/CO2 system as it is. And then only in relation to ambient, not fertilization with CO2 ppms.

So that causes myths and confusion."

Regards,
Tom Barr

(thank you again Tom)

yes another quote, sorry about the band with
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Old 09-21-2008, 10:05 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: CO2 system suggestions for a 75gl tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by ray-the-pilot View Post
Here is the choice. You can believe ignorance superstition and hearsay or you can ask some one who knows. If you actually own one I’d really like to hear about your experience!
Takashi Amano, Tom Barr, Rex Grigg and many others have shown a thorough grasp of planted aquaria, and are true pioneers of the hobby. When they say "you don't need this, it's a waste of money." I listen, as do many others. They don't make these claims lightly, and in the case of Tom Barr, almost all of his claims are backed up with data. Not "spent 5 minutes searching on google" data, but actual scientific methodology. Feel free to see for yourself. Take a look around that site, then come back and talk some more about superstition and ignorance.
Have you tested your pH controller vs. a fluctuating system? You can't be basing all of your viewpoint off of subjective personal experience. You claim to be a scientist, so you must believe in the method of science. You have made your hypothesis clear, but objective results have not been produced.
Test a fluctuating CO2 system vs. your pH controller. Show data, pictures of your results. Mr. Amano and Mr. Barr can repeatedly prove that their system works wonderfully, with the very healthiest plants and fish. If you want the respect they have earned, do as they did, and lead with your actions.

Until then, don't expect anyone to take you too seriously.
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