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Old 11-07-2008, 05:16 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Calibrate your drop checker, CO2 is bad for fish!

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As for a chemist I believe ray is one.
My question was not whether or not Ray-the-chemist was a pilot....my question is.....isn't the point about Phosphates a valid one...or is Ray-the-chemist using a different equation / relationship? What is Ray-the-chemist doing that makes Chuck-the-CO2-table-maker wrong?
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:53 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Calibrate your drop checker, CO2 is bad for fish!

I believe that Joe-the-plumber can work this all out.
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Old 11-08-2008, 05:21 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Let me repeat YOU NEED TO CALIBRATE!

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ďA pH meter won't prove that there's 30 ppm CO2 in the water. You need a CO2 dissolved gas analyzer. I have a pH meter and I wish I knew how much CO2 I had in my aquarium.Ē Nevermore

ďMaybe I'm wrong, but isn't all this based on some presumed relationship between pH and CO2....and doesn't kH figure into this equation?Ē Manwithnofish

ďWhat is Ray-the-chemist doing that makes Chuck-the-CO2-table-maker wrong?Ē Manwithnofish

Let me answer all these questions together.

The problem with any analysis is that you need a KNOWN REFERENCE STANDARD to compare your sample with. In the case of CO2 you kneed a known reference standard of CO2 dissolved in water.

In none of the methods described above does anyone check their test with a known reference. They are faced with all the problems you describe.

If you check out my post ďHow to calibrate your drop checkerĒ you can find a way to calibrate your pH meter with a known concentration of CO2.

Here is an interesting fact. My tank works well when my drop checker is dark green using my pH meter this corresponds to a pH of about 7.1 (in my 4 dKH drop checker). If you go to Chuckís table you will find that this corresponds to a CO2 level of 12 ppm not 30 ppm.

Now I could be wrong. The word from God that 30 ppm is right may be true. But I would really like someone to check out some of the things I post themselves to verify what I've done. That is the way things progress not by making statements like: Tom Barr (ie God) says it is so; therefore, it must be true.)
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Old 11-08-2008, 07:41 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Let me repeat YOU NEED TO CALIBRATE!

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Originally Posted by ray-the-pilot View Post
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The problem with any analysis is that you need a KNOWN REFERENCE STANDARD to compare your sample with.
Finally something we agree on

The reason so many of us respect Tom Barr "GOD" is that he had done so much to help many of us when we where starting. His research has helped so many that would be lost otherwise have beautifully planted aquariums. He also has gone to great lengths to make the hobby affordable, proving it can be done with out a lot of expensive equipment. Call him "GOD" if you want but he has done more for this hobby than most.
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Old 11-08-2008, 08:53 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Let me repeat YOU NEED TO CALIBRATE!

Well I can understand your position. When automobiles became popular there were a lot of people claiming that they would never replace the horse.
Some people are happy with 20th century technology in the 21st century. Iím just not one of them. I want to expand the hobby not live in the past.

BTW I posted an inexpensive way to calibrate your drop checker. It explains how to make a "KNOWN REFERENCE STANDARD" for your tank. Did you try it?

BTW 2 Cheap is not necessarily the best. Some people look for the best. If a lot of people find that something is great, the price will go down.
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Old 11-08-2008, 09:41 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Calibrate your drop checker, CO2 is bad for fish!

I didn't see that post, do you have a link? If you really want to prove the ph controller some test should be in order. I believe you are saying that an aquarium with a ph controller will do better and have less algae with more growth than an aquarium with a drop checker solenoid. It that is the case we can scientifically prove or disprove this hypothesis. Two tanks same substrate, plants, lighting, fert dosing ext.... If someone where to do and Experiment like this it would show proof. And I think that is what is needed to come to a scientific conclusion to this theory. No?
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Old 11-08-2008, 11:56 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Calibrate your drop checker, CO2 is bad for fish!

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In none of the methods described above does anyone check their test with a known reference.
Ray-the-pilot. So does this mean that there isn't a "simple" chemical equation that states a relationship between CO2, pH, and kH?

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If someone where to do and Experiment like this it would show proof. And I think that is what is needed to come to a scientific conclusion to this theory.
Chag..

Personally, I'm not interested in the results of such an experiment, because I'm not interested in a pH controller. Therefore, it really doesn't matter to me if it is better. I believe too many people are having "success" with a drop checker and I'll learn to make my system work with it or shut it all down and quit. Bottom line: I do not believe that you have to have a pH controller to be successful.

But, I absolutely think it's great that other people have them and are happy with them.
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Old 11-08-2008, 12:06 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: Calibrate your drop checker, CO2 is bad for fish!

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Originally Posted by chagovatoloco View Post
I didn't see that post, do you have a link? If you really want to prove the ph controller some test should be in order. I believe you are saying that an aquarium with a ph controller will do better and have less algae with more growth than an aquarium with a drop checker solenoid. It that is the case we can scientifically prove or disprove this hypothesis. Two tanks same substrate, plants, lighting, fert dosing ext.... If someone where to do and Experiment like this it would show proof. And I think that is what is needed to come to a scientific conclusion to this theory. No?

I suppose your test would prove something to the person who does it but I wouldnít call it scientific.

Your test is like asking a person to cook a meal on a wood burning stove and a gas burning stove. The test being which meal tastes better? I donít think you would find that much of a difference in taste between the two ways; however, Iím sure the person who did this test would decide that it was much better to have a gas stove in their home.

Iím not sure why you have such a blind spot when it comes to using a pH controller?
Yes you can grow plants without one that is true. But you can grow them without CO2 so what! Just because Tom Barr says you donít need one doesnít mean that it is not a valuable tool to have in your arsenal.

I actually own a regulator, bubble counter, solenoid valve and the other stuff that Tom Barr says you need and that system is erratic, produces wide swings in my aquarium environment and is not good enough for me. It may be good enough for Tom Barr but I have a higher standard. Is there something wrong with that?

Here is how to calibrate your pH meter/controller using a reference:

https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...p-checker.html
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Old 11-08-2008, 12:20 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: Calibrate your drop checker, CO2 is bad for fish!

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Originally Posted by Manwithnofish View Post
Ray-the-pilot. So does this mean that there isn't a "simple" chemical equation that states a relationship between CO2, pH, and kH?

Chag..

Personally, I'm not interested in the results of such an experiment, because I'm not interested in a pH controller. Therefore, it really doesn't matter to me if it is better. I believe too many people are having "success" with a drop checker and I'll learn to make my system work with it or shut it all down and quit. Bottom line: I do not believe that you have to have a pH controller to be successful.

But, I absolutely think it's great that other people have them and are happy with them.
Yes there is a simple mathematical relationship between pH, kH and CO2. It is the HendersonĖHasselbalch equation. Unfortunately, it is a relative equation. What that means is you have to have a reference standard to compare with when you are using it. That is why you calibrate a pH meter with know reference solutions before you check an unknown.

I agree, you donít need a pH controller to grow plants and you donít need CO2 either. If you are happy with your drop checker, thatís great. I am more demanding and need the higher level of control I get with a pH controller. Is there a problem with that?
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Old 11-08-2008, 02:54 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Calibrate your drop checker, CO2 is bad for fish!

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I agree, you donít need a pH controller to grow plants and you donít need CO2 either. If you are happy with your drop checker, thatís great. I am more demanding and need the higher level of control I get with a pH controller. Is there a problem with that?
A problem? I don't think so. What any individual chooses to do is obviously their choice. And it's great that there is diversity in our approaches. It's just that not everyone is going to subscribe to what someone else may be doing (and with great success). We don't have to argue that everyone does something the same way (the best way) or it's wrong. You offered a very excellant approach to this issue. Thanks for sharing your way. As for me, I'm just looking for another way. I'm really not sure I ever wanted to get so involved in chemistry to own a pH controller and meter or to solve chemical equations in order to have an aquarium in my house. If I ever change my mind (which happens frequently), I'll know just who to look up, so I'll think of you as a resource for controlling pH or CO2 or both.
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