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Old 01-31-2009, 01:14 PM   #21 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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Originally Posted by ray-the-pilot View Post
The fact is you can get better CO2 distribution using a CO2 controller.
Ok, now I am much more confused them before, and not by the science at all.
My initial question (though it might not have been clearly stated as a question and I mistakenly called it a monitor when I meant controller) was:

Do you mean setting up a PH Controller or a Co2 Controller.?

There, that is more clear, at least should be.

Now, I am not aware of a product called a Co2 Controller. Am I missing something. Is there a product out there that is a Co2 Controller that I am not aware of and is that what you are talking about here.

Not trying to get cute and not trying to start trouble, I am just wanting to know if I am out of the loop, or if you are calling a PH controller a Co2 controller?

If you ARE IN FACT using a PH Controller, I don't see how your quoted statement could be accurate because the monitor only turns on and off the solenoid.

However if there is a co2 controller and it does do what you claim, then I am interested in learning about the product, how much do they cost, where do you get them, DO THEY GIVE you better distribution.

IME a reactor gives better distribution then a diffuser, so I have been using them.
IME a controller protects against over gassing.
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Old 01-31-2009, 02:15 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

There seems to be quite a bit of confusion regarding this post. Might I attempt to throw in my two bits and clarify a couple of things:

First, Ray is indeed talking about using a pH controller. If you assume that KH is constant, there is a well-established relationship between CO2 concentration and pH.

One thing that Ray has done that other people haven't, is to use a "standard" 8100 ppm CO2 solution. I'm not familiar with this particular seltzer tablet that he's using. If it does indeed contain 8,100 mg of CO2 (once dissolved) it should create the reference solution he's talking about. If instead, only a portion of a 8.1 gram tablet dissolves to CO2 then the actual stock solution will be less than 8,100 ppm. Unless he's using pure dry ice, only a portion of a tablet will convert to dissolved CO2. It also seems unlikely to me that you can dissolve 8 grams of CO2 in a 1 liter bottle "alka-seltzer style" without exploding the bottle, but that's just my gut feeling.

I'd also be hesitant to apply his results to all aquariums. One experiment in one particular aquarium provides evidence of a single anectodal event, not universal proof of a concept.

His point about the variability of CO2 concentration in an aquarium is an important concept. I'm inclined to side with Tom Barr on this one. It all depends on circulation patterns, turbulence, internal mixing, and the velocity of the water column.

To sum up my feelings, accurate CO2 measurement is next to impossible at a hobbyist level. I agree that controllers can be a useful tool. To use one correctly, KH must be stable, the probe needs to be calibrated frequently, the probe needs to be replaced when necessary, and you need to gradually decrease the pH while monitoring plant response and fish stress. More flow equals more circulation which creates better CO2 mixing and distribution.
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Old 01-31-2009, 02:27 PM   #23 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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First, Ray is indeed talking about using a pH controller.
Thanks Bryce, that is what I was looking for.
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Old 01-31-2009, 02:42 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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Originally Posted by goalcreas View Post
Ok, now I am much more confused them before, and not by the science at all.
My initial question (though it might not have been clearly stated as a question and I mistakenly called it a monitor when I meant controller) was:

Do you mean setting up a PH Controller or a Co2 Controller.?

There, that is more clear, at least should be.

Now, I am not aware of a product called a Co2 Controller. Am I missing something. Is there a product out there that is a Co2 Controller that I am not aware of and is that what you are talking about here.

Not trying to get cute and not trying to start trouble, I am just wanting to know if I am out of the loop, or if you are calling a PH controller a Co2 controller?

If you ARE IN FACT using a PH Controller, I don't see how your quoted statement could be accurate because the monitor only turns on and off the solenoid.

However if there is a co2 controller and it does do what you claim, then I am interested in learning about the product, how much do they cost, where do you get them, DO THEY GIVE you better distribution.

IME a reactor gives better distribution then a diffuser, so I have been using them.
IME a controller protects against over gassing.
There is no such thing as a CO2 controller, at least in the aquatic plant hobby. There is a CO2 MONITOR which can measure "real-time" CO2 concentrations. Will cost you $1000+ to buy one of those. That is what Tom Barr uses to measure the different areas of his tank to determine variation in CO2 concentrations in different areas of his tank.

A pH controller will not give you better CO2 distribution. Only good flow and circulation will do that. Plain and simple...The author of the thread is trying to prove otherwise. What a pH controller can do is provide a STABLE CO2 and pH concentration. But, the author has data from HIS tank that seems to show CO2 concentrations are the same all over the tank. He must have good flow to equilibrate the CO2 around the tank. Two things I believe the author is confusing are (1) the ability of a pH controller to somehow magically equilibrate the CO2 and (2)the function of a filter/pump.
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Old 01-31-2009, 04:22 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BryceM View Post
One thing that Ray has done that other people haven't, is to use a "standard" 8100 ppm CO2 solution. I'm not familiar with this particular seltzer tablet that he's using. If it does indeed contain 8,100 mg of CO2 (once dissolved) it should create the reference solution he's talking about. If instead, only a portion of a 8.1 gram tablet dissolves to CO2 then the actual stock solution will be less than 8,100 ppm. Unless he's using pure dry ice, only a portion of a tablet will convert to dissolved CO2. It also seems unlikely to me that you can dissolve 8 grams of CO2 in a 1 liter bottle "alka-seltzer style" without exploding the bottle, but that's just my gut feeling.
Never trust your gut!

http://www.prairiemoon.biz/isibrusalsyp.html

BTW Don't you own a CO2 controller?
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Old 01-31-2009, 04:28 PM   #26 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

Do you have a link to the Co2 controller?
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Old 01-31-2009, 04:57 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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Originally Posted by goalcreas View Post
Do you have a link to the Co2 controller?
If you want to duplicate my system use the UltraLife MC101 controller:
http://www.ultralifedirect.com/ph&orpcontrol.htm

If you just want to control your CO2 you can use the UltraLife M301 or this Controller:
http://www.aquariumplants.com/Automa...22_p/pr209.htm

I purchased my MC101 at my LFS and it was less expensive than the on line price. Who knows?
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:28 PM   #28 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

OK, yeah, that is a PH Controller.
Which is what I thought it was back in my first post.
It is a Co2 controller in the sense that we hook them up to Co2, but really it controls anything powered based on PH set points. I could turn on / off my living room lamp based on the PH in my tank. (realizing that the light won't do anything to change the PH in my tank, but I could do it based on the natural fluctuating of the PH in the tank)
I do see now that other places are calling them PH / Co2 controllers to market them in the hobby.
I have enough success IMHO just using it with PH calibration to not want to go the extra steps you do, but it is an interesting concept.
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:39 PM   #29 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

again its not a Co2 controller both of those are using a ph probe to control ph...thus it is a ph controller.....its only activating or turning on the co2 when the ph is outside of the range you set it at
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Old 01-31-2009, 08:46 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

Always trust your gut!
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