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Old 02-02-2009, 06:54 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ray-the-pilot View Post
Actually I did note this in my paper. Maybe I should have put it in BOLD!

<<H2CO3 and kH are the same as before but H+ is the hydrogen ion concentration You can find the H+ concentration from the pH by using this math manipulated H+ = 10^(-pH)
Using this manipulator and plugging in arbitrary values of pH into Chuck’s equation you get the results shown in Table 1 which is graphed in Fig. 1.>>

Have a nice day!


No, your values for CO2 should work just fine for analysis. Your transformation from pH to CO2 is simply a unit conversion, and both the variances and distribution of these data are normal. The fact that you have to use a formula, which includes pH and KH, to calculate CO2 suggests that the CO2 values can be analyzed without transformation. If you had more data points, the distribution would look even better, but for the data points you have, this is quite good.

You cannot make scientific claims until you have solid statistics to back them up. I have requested to see some statistical analysis from you several times but get nothing in return so I have done these analyses for you.

I’m getting a sense that no matter what I or anybody else says about this topic will get rejected. If you fail to accept anyone else’s criticism of your methods and interpretations (which is the foundation of good ethical science) then I can no longer participate in this argument.

Also, I see no reason to have to PM you for information. If you are presenting a technical paper and saying that you have done statistical analysis and making “scientific” claims it needs to be presented to everyone. I assure you I am not the only one around here who understands science and others would like to see exactly how you have come to these conclusions.



EDIT: The blue line represents a normal distribution and the yellow line is the distribution Ray's data follows. As you can see, the distribution is very close to normal and nothing to be concerned about statistically.

Last edited by helgymatt; 02-02-2009 at 09:05 AM..
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:37 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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Originally Posted by helgymatt View Post
No, your values for CO2 should work just fine for analysis. Your transformation from pH to CO2 is simply a unit conversion, and both the variances and distribution of these data are normal.

I think you need to talk to your statistics professor on this one.

A logarithmic manipulation is a non-linear transformation of the data, which does not preserve the distribution characteristic of the data. You can verify this yourself with a simple test.
Start with this set of 100 points:
S1 = {1.0, 1.1. 1.2, Ö.9.8, 9.9 10.0}
If you plot the distribution of this data it obviously has a uniform distribution.

Now take the log of each data point and get a new set:
S2 = {0.0, 0.041, 0,079, Ö 0.9912, 0.9956, 1}
If you plot this set you will see that it is no longer uniform.

Actually I can take criticism very well. Unfortunately, your understanding of this problem is not up to speed. This is actually a very complicated statistics problem and does not resolve with the simplistic approach you are using.

This stuff is way beyond what anyone else on this board is interested in. I am more than willing to work with you. PM me and I will share my data with you and discuss the issues. Otherwise, Have a nice day.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:52 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

First off, stop trying to be cute and telling me to have a nice day please. I'm not here to play games with you or try to prove something. I am a scientist and like most scientists I question the validity of scientific claims that you say will "change and revolutionize" the hobby.

Clearly we are at odds. Based on the YOUR data and based on THE tests for normality, your data are in fact normal. And no, I don't need to talk to my stat professor. I spent 2 years with him learning the analysis of variance, the assumptions (normality, equal variance, and independence) required for the analysis, and the tests to check to make sure the assumptions hold strong. If the "statistical problem" is so complicated, how have you possibly come to your conclusions? How can you argue all this statistical stuff without presenting a single bit of statistical evidence?

I rest my case. Good luck trying to convince others of this.

For everyone else’s record, the analysis I have done for Ray shows no evidence that a pH controller leads to total equalization of CO2 levels throughout an aquarium. Until Ray presents anything that suggests otherwise, take all this with a grain of salt.

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Old 02-02-2009, 09:07 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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Old 02-02-2009, 11:51 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

A thread like this makes successful CO2 injection seem way more difficult than it really is.
it may make a newcomer think that a controller is essential for success.

possibly because the final conclusion in your paper is that "If you are trying to maintain the CO2 in your aquarium at the optimum level for plants and fish, then a CO2 controller is essential."

no offense Ray, I know you are trying to spread info and help. But I beg to differ.
I'm not a scientist, dont want to be, and can't attempt to discuss all the stats and whatnot.

the main things I see missing in setups that show evidence of poor CO2 are

1> consistent flow that reaches the plant beds (to maximize distribution)
2> consistent metering with a good needle valve (for stable control)
3> proper mixing of CO2 into the water column (for quick response)
4> minimal surface agitation (to maximize retention)
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:01 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

And on the discussion goes.

Please, lets keep it nice, clean, and civil. Otherwise the thread will be closed.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:20 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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Originally Posted by ashappard View Post
A thread like this makes successful CO2 injection seem way more difficult than it really is.
it may make a newcomer think that a controller is essential for success.

possibly because the final conclusion in your paper is that "If you are trying to maintain the CO2 in your aquarium at the optimum level for plants and fish, then a CO2 controller is essential."

no offense Ray, I know you are trying to spread info and help. But I beg to differ.
I'm not a scientist, dont want to be, and can't attempt to discuss all the stats and whatnot.

the main things I see missing in setups that show evidence of poor CO2 are

1> consistent flow that reaches the plant beds (to maximize distribution)
2> consistent metering with a good needle valve (for stable control)
3> proper mixing of CO2 into the water column (for quick response)
4> minimal surface agitation (to maximize retention)
Well those may be what works for you and I cannot argue with them but in the test tank that I used:

I did do something to maintain good flow by using a filter rated above my tank size.
I didn't use a needle valve.
I didn't do any special mixing except as noted below.
I did consistantly use significant aeration to maintain levels of O2.
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Old 02-06-2009, 04:08 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

I didn't know there were so many threads on this subject from the same author.

Ray - Are you trying to promote your 'published papers' to try and sell something or gain royalties?

I don't understand why you defend your paper's assumption when we all know that Ph drops within tank water cannot wholly be attributed to CO2!!! This is why the DC users put 4dKH in their DCs and not tank water.

Therefore a Ph controller making this assumption is about as useful as a drop checker with tank water in it!

As for a Ph controller meaning that the ppm is equal all the way around the tank. Is it on some sort of mechanism that uses the probe as a stirring stick and gently mixes the tank water? Or does this system have it's own current devices (powerheads, pumps, filters etc) attached to it?

I think you need to give this one up because you will lead many many people to an algae laden tank!!!

AC
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Old 02-06-2009, 01:35 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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Originally Posted by Supercoley1 View Post
I didn't know there were so many threads on this subject from the same author.

Ray - Are you trying to promote your 'published papers' to try and sell something or gain royalties?

I don't understand why you defend your paper's assumption when we all know that Ph drops within tank water cannot wholly be attributed to CO2!!! This is why the DC users put 4dKH in their DCs and not tank water.

Therefore a Ph controller making this assumption is about as useful as a drop checker with tank water in it!

As for a Ph controller meaning that the ppm is equal all the way around the tank. Is it on some sort of mechanism that uses the probe as a stirring stick and gently mixes the tank water? Or does this system have it's own current devices (powerheads, pumps, filters etc) attached to it?

I think you need to give this one up because you will lead many many people to an algae laden tank!!!

AC
The reason I am so excited about this is because I know a good thing when Iíve ACTUALLY USED IT! Iím sorry if that seems rude and I apologize for the caps but when you use something you have a different perspective from someone who hasnít.

I just want to point something out. I realize that this may be semantics but it is important in science to understand definitions; so, we are all talking the same language.
These are the definitions that I use in my papers:

A CO2 controller is an electronic device used to maintain some fixed level of CO2 in an aquatic system.

This is not the same thing as a pH controller. Typical pH controllers are linked to devices that pump dilute solutions of HCl or NaOH and are designed to maintain the pH of an aquatic system.

I do not have a pH controller in my tank. I have a CO2 controller.

In my experiment I did not use any special devise to mix the tank water other than normal filtration. You can find the information about the tank in my profile.

I understand that CO2 is not entirely a function of pH that was the purpose of developing the calibration curve.

I do not have an algae laden tank. Quite a few people (even some moderators) use CO2 controllers in their systems and do not have any more problems with algae.

I have not made any money off of anything Iíve written in this forum.
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Old 02-06-2009, 01:46 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

How is it measureing CO2 then? Please explain. I do not understand science so papers with loads of spiel in them mean as much as a bloke wittering on to me in a pub with a drunken slur!!! Therefore I tend to tak no notice of either. Why do you call it 'Ph controlled pressurised CO2 in all your other posts?

Please explain.

I still fail to comprehend how with the same current flow, wether the 'CO2 controller' works or not how with the 'CO2 controller' in the tank the CO2 ppm will be equal all around the tank where a tank without would have deadspots??? No matter if you inject for the whole photoperiod or use a controller the ppm will be higher in the proximity of the source of the CO2 than it is in other areas. This is basic science!!! We can try and push it around the tank quicker but by the very nature of physics where the source is will have huge amounts before it is diluted into the rest of the tank. No science can disprove this!!!

How does the 'CO2 controller' level this out?

And I would like to add following on from the closed thread on this subject we users of non controller tanks do not need to constantly adjust out levels!!! We adjust it over a couple of days at the beginning and then leave it virtually until the bottle runs out!!!

Oh and please post up a picture of your tank for us to see

I also notice that a lot of your threads are aimed at dismissing either drop checkers in general or high CO2 injections. You seem to suggest that at 15ppm fish are visibly affected!!!! My DC near the source is continually lime green to yellow. The DC at the other end is continually lime green (lower further away ) They both have 4dKH (bought from a reliable source and laboratory tested) which indicates I am in the 25-40ppm region.

Please can you explain why my shrimp colonies are out of control and the Black Corys spawn every 6 days!!! Before you ask no they are not infertile. The wrigglers go in the nursery tank when they are 1 week old!!!

AC

Last edited by Supercoley1; 02-06-2009 at 01:57 PM..
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