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Old 02-06-2009, 02:11 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

Is there a single person who has read this that thinks Ray has a CO2 controller?

I don't. The piece of hardware he's using doesn't even measure CO2.
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Old 02-06-2009, 02:14 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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Originally Posted by ray-the-pilot View Post
Quite a few people (even some moderators) use CO2 controllers in their systems and do not have any more problems with algae.
I use a pH controller and I'm having loads of algae problems. It's a piece of hardware, like all the other stuff we use. It isn't magic, it has significant limitations, and it works well when used correctly.
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Old 02-06-2009, 02:52 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

Bryce - I would suggest using you Ph controller as a safety cut off (set it 1.2Ph lower than normal) and then trying the dreaded inject for the photoperiod method (2 hours prior on, and the off 2 hours prior to finish.) Take your DC (or buy one) to light green and then post your results here

Make a basic (near enough to give the desired colours) 4dKH solution:
6g Bicarb + 5000ml DI water = 40dKH
10ml 40dKH + 90ml DI water = 4dKH

Don't change anything else. Just change the CO2 control method to not controlled.

This is of course assuming you have adequate flow within the tank.

I have 2200lph (on paper) on my 125Ltr tank!!!

AC
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Old 02-06-2009, 04:42 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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Originally Posted by ray-the-pilot View Post

This is not the same thing as a pH controller. Typical pH controllers are linked to devices that pump dilute solutions of HCl or NaOH and are designed to maintain the pH of an aquatic system.

I do not have a pH controller in my tank. I have a CO2 controller.
okay... now i'm really confused. you say you have a co2 controller, but in your paper the equipment you list is a UltraLife pH Controller, Model MC 101. looking at the manufacturer's website, they list it as a pH controller.

so what do you have? i don't know if you're purposely trying to confuse people, or you've confused yourself. because right after you've listed off the equipment used in your experiment, you immediately refer to it as a co2 controller.

personally, i think this paper was rushed, and all information that should be included, was not. being a non-scientist, i would personally like to know the basic setup of the tank used, and accompanying photos would have been helpful.

after reading your paper, it still hasn't convinced me that a pH controller (co2 controller) is necessary or useful. or how it can provide better information than basic plant and fish observations with my own eyes.
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Old 02-06-2009, 04:59 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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Originally Posted by BryceM View Post
Is there a single person who has read this that thinks Ray has a CO2 controller?

I don't. The piece of hardware he's using doesn't even measure CO2.
As I said this is a question of semantics but an important one. There are pH controllers on the market that are used to control pH. They do not use CO2. I use my controller to control the CO2 level in my tank. It runs on CO2.

Here are some questions.

Does a thermometer measure temperature?
Does your speedometer measure speed?
Does your pH meter measure pH?

No to all of them.

A thermometer measures volume.
A speedometer measures RPM.
A pH meter measures Oxidation Reduction Potential (ORP a fancy way of saying voltage.)

What a device actually measures has nothing to do with what it controls.


I have a chart next to my controller that converts the readings on the meter to ppm CO2. This is pretty extreme. Most people who use CO2 controllers have a mental chart in their head. A reading of 5.5 is yellow on their drop checker. A reading of 7.0 is blue on their drop checker. (The numbers are not absolute just examples).

I donít think anyone who has a controller is using it to control the pH.

Bruce, I know you have a controller from your posts. Do you use it to control the pH of your tank or the CO2?

I'm sure this is just mindset but I believe that in the future more and more dealers will be advertising their equipment as CO2 controllers because that is what they do.
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Old 02-06-2009, 05:09 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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Originally Posted by BryceM View Post
I use a pH controller and I'm having loads of algae problems. It's a piece of hardware, like all the other stuff we use. It isn't magic, it has significant limitations, and it works well when used correctly.
Well, I agree, people have algae problems all the time. That is I why I'm suggesting using a CO2 controller. The more things you can stabilize the more likely you are to find the thing that triggered the algae bloom.

I was reading your thread about the bloom and the only suggestion that I would make is to lower your CO2 so your DC is blue-green and keep the CO2 on 24/7. Thatís what I do but then I live with a low level of GSA.

Does anyone really know what they are doing in this hobby?
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Old 02-06-2009, 05:25 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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okay... now i'm really confused. you say you have a co2 controller, but in your paper the equipment you list is a UltraLife pH Controller, Model MC 101. looking at the manufacturer's website, they list it as a pH controller.

............
or how it can provide better information than basic plant and fish observations with my own eyes.
I could be wrong about this (I frequently am) but I think the UltraLife people call it a pH/ORP controller. ORP is a fancy way of saying that it can control anything that changes the ORP (voltage) like CO2.
I understand this is confusing but that is why I am calling it a CO2 controller because it controls the CO2 in my tank to +/- 2 ppm.

I don't think this is "better information than basic plant and fish observations with my own eyes."
This is just a suppliment to and a confirmation of that information.
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Old 02-06-2009, 05:54 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

Ray,

So you're a believer in the CO2 chart eh?

Answer me this:

Do you believe the pH/KH/CO2 concentration chart to be valid for aquarium conditions? If it is, then you might, in fact, be able to argue that the device functions as a CO2 controller.

If, however, there are potential sources of error inherent to the pH/KH/CO2 concentration chart, you must admit that your device can't possibly be reacting only to changes in CO2 concentration. It is measuring only pH (or ORP if you'd like), a surrogate marker for CO2 (and not a very good one IME). A measurement of mercury volume in a thermometer is an excellent surrogate for temperature. It's scarcely affected by any other variable. Any acid-base chemistry that takes place in the aquarium will affect the pH of the water, introducing an error to the supposed measurement.

The KH/pH/CO2 chart is only valid for a carbonate buffer system in distilled water with added CO2 as the only source of acid. Add in any other variable such as secondary buffering systems, acidification via the nitrogen cycle, or a myriad of other biochemical acid/base processes and the chart is quickly invalidated. Assume then that the biological acid/base processes might not be constant over time and you'll see actual CO2 concentrations wandering all over for a given pH and KH. Thermometers and speedometers aren't subject to so many other variables in normal operation.

Your argument of semantics proves nothing to me except that you don't have a good grasp of the potential sources of error inherent to the device.

OK.

I've said my piece. I'm unsubscribing to this thread since I see no further value in discussing the subject with those unwilling to consider a broader point of view.
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Old 02-06-2009, 06:22 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ray-the-pilot View Post
I could be wrong about this (I frequently am) but I think the UltraLife people call it a pH/ORP controller. ORP is a fancy way of saying that it can control anything that changes the ORP (voltage) like CO2.
I understand this is confusing but that is why I am calling it a CO2 controller because it controls the CO2 in my tank to +/- 2 ppm.

I don't think this is "better information than basic plant and fish observations with my own eyes."
This is just a suppliment to and a confirmation of that information.
yeah... but it's still a pH controller. not a co2 controller. and that's not semantics. and referring to it as such, because it's "less confusing", does nothing but slant your "paper" to just anecdotal information that suits your own purpose. and so far, hasn't stood up to any of the requests for additional information and/or clarification.

why you don't provide the information that has been requested, so that it can be confirmed (or refuted), is puzzling. that's the whole point of doing a scientific experiment and publishing the results, so that your peers can review.

unless there's something to hide.
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Old 02-06-2009, 06:27 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Default Re: How to set up your CO2 Controller and why they are so good!

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Originally Posted by freydo View Post
yeah... but it's still a pH controller. not a co2 controller. and that's not semantics. and referring to it as such, because it's "less confusing", does nothing but slant your "paper" to just anecdotal information that suits your own purpose. and so far, hasn't stood up to any of the requests for additional information and/or clarification.

why you don't provide the information that has been requested, so that it can be confirmed (or refuted), is puzzling. that's the whole point of doing a scientific experiment and publishing the results, so that your peers can review.

unless there's something to hide.
What information are you asking for????????????????????????????

And it doesn't control pH. It measures ORP and controls the CO2 in my tank.
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