There is another brand of stainless steel canister filter coming out soon! - Page 2 - Equipment - Aquatic Plant Central

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Old 07-02-2011, 08:49 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: There is another brand of stainless steel canister filter coming out soon!

Quote:
Originally Posted by niko View Post
A pressure cooker with piping in it that no American company has found a way to replicate. Or maybe they are careful to not appear low class copying something. So we have a plethora of ugly looking equipment available to us. Cheap. We love "cheap", right? Not really if you look closely at what you are getting.

Example:
- Fluval FXwhatever. "Largest" and "nicest" canister filter you can buy. About $300. Plastic, thick ugly hoses, volume good for a 55 gallon tank. Large flow from a non-pressure rated pump encased in plastic.
- ADA's largest filter - someone here said $550. Every little detail has been chosen carefully for performance, materials, durability, and looks.

How you can save $109 (so you invest them to grow to $1M one day):

Spanish stainless steel bucket: $200
Pressure rated pump (Iwaki, what ADA uses): $200.
Hoses, clamps, valves: $40
Time to buy and put everyting together so it performs for eternity: $1.00
--------------------------------------------
Total: $441
ADA filter: $550

This discussion is pointless. Fake is fake. That's all there is to it.
This discussion could have one single positive outcome - for all of us to agree that not everything that is shiny and yellow is gold. Forgive me folk, but I doubt we will agree.



--Nikolay
I'm sorry but I'd have to disagree. Making a stainless steel can look good is a matter of give it a brushed surface and some neat little polishing. On top of that I'm pretty certain of the internal design hasn't been engineered to the same degree as you claim. I doubt they've calculated their filter to have the perfect flow angles or that they've carefully mathed out the exact volume of media that is optimal. The only thing I can think of is that maybe they've designed a filter with less bypass but as far as I can tell it looks like a stainless steel version of the Eheim classic. Big whoop.

If you think you're paying for aesthetics I think you're out of your mind. Aesthetics are cheap. Fashion jewellery is a lot cheaper than diamonds but can look just as good when worn in the right way. Adding a few minimalist touches here and there doesn't mean you can charge an extra 200 bucks. I know I'm not going to convince you but we as hobbyists need to stop and think what we're really purchasing when we shell out hundreds and hundreds of dollars to happily gloat about all our ADA stickers on our stuff.

But, I'm afraid that this is going to come down to an apple v. pc debate so I'll just stop trying to convince anyone. But seriously, it's just a hunk of metal. There's nothing special I see about it other than the fact it will match your other ADA decor. And yes, I do own ADA items and I couldn't be happier with my 60P but honestly, 500 bucks for a steel can is 10 steps too far.
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Old 07-02-2011, 08:53 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: There is another brand of stainless steel canister filter coming out soon!

Just like finding a cheap way to make a Lily pipe can cost you $20 the stainless steel bucket is not a problem either.

Go to a place that makes stainless steel items for the restaurant industry. In some cities Asians have taken over this kind of work. Meaning they do it cheap. They can make you any shape out of stainless steel. A canister? Easy! A hood for your lights? Easy! A whole freaking ADA-style aquarium stand out of stainless steel - they can do that, no problem. It's going to cost you very little.

Looking forward to see a post that describes how some genius followed my advice and is bragging about his new stainless steel canister with hoses from Home Depot and a local artisan made him a Lily Pipe that looks like a marijuana bong... Which by the way has been done already by cheerful glass blowing reef folk. And it is U.G.L.Y. Reason to be colored - "it does not show the algae build up". Honestly! You can't argue with stupid.



I think that what we are talking about here is not really a valid argument. I'm glad that it's not turning into the usual situation in which because of the way I say things I have to come up with a clever way to make someone see their own stupidity. What we really need to understand is how the Japanese think. The Japanese culture. I've heard interesting things about them from foilk that have lived in Japan. Our perception of value is VERY different than theirs. I think that's what perplexes us when we look at the simplicity of the ADA design and the obvious theft of good old working ideas (Ehiem canisters is only 1 example).

I guess historically people have always stolen the ideas of others. I recently learned that Maria Montessori, the lady that started all these posh special schools for people that can afford to send their kids there basically stole the ideas from a communist psychologist that happen to also die early. Another psychologist's ideas were also "incorporated" in the Montessori Method. When you see a Montesoori school remember ADA and this Spanish CADE company. As I said - revamping old ideas is something that people have always done. In the case of ADA one needs to know more about the Japanese culture before judging them too harshly. To most folk in the US a lot of the products that ADA offers makes little sense and we naturally look for a negative explanation of what we perceive as making no sense.

--Nikolay

Last edited by niko; 07-02-2011 at 09:07 AM..
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Old 07-02-2011, 08:57 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: There is another brand of stainless steel canister filter coming out soon!

Quote:
Originally Posted by niko View Post
Just like finding a cheap way to make a Lily pipe can cost you $20 the stainless steel bucket is not a problem either.

Go to a place that makes stainless steel items for the restaurant industry. In some cities Asians have taken over this kind of work. Meaning they do it cheap. They can make you any shape out of stainless steel. A canister? Easy! A hood for your lights? Easy! A whole freaking ADA-style aquarium stand out of stainless steel - they can do that, no problem. It's going to cost you very little.

Looking forward to see a post that describes how some genius followed my advice and is bragging about his new stainless steel canister with hoses from Home Depot and a local artisan made him a Lily Pipe that looks like a marijuana bong...

--Nikolay
EDIT: Okay I take that first sentence back. Name calling isn't right. Sorry.
Ahahaha, you realize I'm chinese right? Thanks for being a racist arse. Anyways, there are several issues with that idea. What I'm saying isn't that you can make one yourself but big manufacturers like ADA and CalAqua and all those chinese makers like Mr.Aqua can do these things for a lot cheaper but they aren't. Why? Because people aren't looking for cheaper alternatives. They're living off their reputation, not the actual efficacy of their equipment.

And I don't know about you, but all the lab glass blowers I know do top knotch work. You try to find someone that can make more perfectly spaced loops than a man who spends his time making precision instruments for labs in the form of distillers.

edit: Take this for example-

http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/10568/22-302-20

oh look! A piece of lab grade borosilicate that's been hand blown. Wait! What does that look like to you?

http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=155

No way!

Or maybe even.... http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/10568/10-302-13

and then http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?m...&products_id=8
This just basically a broken condenser tube! I don't get why we're paying such a premium for this stuff.

Now do you get my drift?

Last edited by Jeffww; 07-02-2011 at 09:24 AM..
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:05 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: There is another brand of stainless steel canister filter coming out soon!

Niko, do you have a superjet personally?

As for the similar costs... sorry but that is inaccurate. Not everyone will use an Iwaki pump. I would likely use a pump that costs about $50. I don't need the best of the best. The Superjet doesn't even come with valves so all you need is some hose and clamps, and we don't know if the knock-off will come with them or not.


I'm sorry I don't have a grand for the ES-1200... The good one, the one that pushes about 300 GPH. The ES-600 is only strong enough for a ten gallon aquarium if you want 10X flow.

Also, you said that this company is the Spanish company CADE. You are wrong. CADE is another asian company that makes another knock-off filter. In asia and Australia it is considered a competitor to ADA.

Jeff, actually all of the ADA stuff is based on lab glasswate.. like the beetle bubble counter, the diffusers, the softenizer (now that's exxpensive!) etc. They are all very high quality though, and worth the price in my opinion.

Last edited by JustLikeAPill; 07-02-2011 at 09:18 AM..
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:17 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: There is another brand of stainless steel canister filter coming out soon!

Do I have a Bugatti Veyron, Pill?

No.

For one reason. Common to most folk in most life situations requiring money.

But let me remind you - in another thread I hinted that I have a plan for a canister that is everything that ADA's is except the price is way low. Everything you see on it is industrial quality. Size - whatever you want it to be. Good deal I know how people in this hobby think and I will not be surprised when they make "better choices" most of the time.

--Nikolay
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:25 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: There is another brand of stainless steel canister filter coming out soon!

No, I don't, but I am not calling every other car that isn't a Bugatti a cheap, low class POS, either.

So your canister filter you are coming out with... is it stainless steel? If so, why are you putting this alternative canister down so much?

The impression you are giving is that any filter that isn't ADA is cheap crap. That anyone who would buy a stainless steel canister that isn't a superjet is cheap, low class, etc.

So you DO see how not everyone can afford $500 to $1,000 for a canster filter... so what seperates YOUR knock-off (it is clearly a knock-off since you said it is everything that ADA's filter is but a lot cheaper...) from this one?

Where do you get off putting down a knock-off and worse, putting down the people who would buy a steel knock-off filter when you are making knock-offs yourself and ripping off ADA's ideas just like this one?
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:27 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: There is another brand of stainless steel canister filter coming out soon!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustLikeAPill View Post
Niko, do you have a superjet personally?

As for the similar costs... sorry but that is inaccurate. Not everyone will use an Iwaki pump. I would likely use a pump that costs about $50. I don't need the best of the best. The Superjet doesn't even come with valves so all you need is some hose and clamps, and we don't know if the knock-off will come with them or not.


I'm sorry I don't have a grand for the ES-1200... The good one, the one that pushes about 300 GPH. The ES-600 is only strong enough for a ten gallon aquarium if you want 10X flow.

Also, you said that this company is the Spanish company CADE. You are wrong. CADE is another asian company that makes another knock-off filter. In asia and Australia it is considered a competitor to ADA.

Jeff, actually all of the ADA stuff is based on lab glasswate.. like the beetle bubble counter, the diffusers, the softenizer (now that's exxpensive!) etc. They are all very high quality though, and worth the price in my opinion.
They're obviously over charging though. This stuff is cheap. Borosilicate is one of the easiest glasses to work too. You can bend it with just a table top alcohol lamp. I mean when you charge 50 dollars for a 5 dollar piece of glass and a 2 dollar ceramic disc what does that say about the company itself? What does that say about the people who buy it?

Sure it's all "lab grade" but I'm wondering if that really should add any worth to the object. It's not like we're pumping acid through the glass anyways. It doesn't need to be lab grade. It's just a marketing campaign. Using BS glass is only making life easier for them or rather their glass blowers. I don't get the hubbub about ADA glass.
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:35 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: There is another brand of stainless steel canister filter coming out soon!

ADA uses Pyrex brand glass for their pipes at least (isn't mentioned in the other instructions for my other glassware) and not generic borosilicate glass. The glass they use is really thick compared to "generic" stuff you can get off of ebay... I have knocked my pipes and other glassware a lot and it is all just fine. I have broken "generic" diffuser and pipes just by cleaning them or trying to put the hose on, however.

If you've ever used the glassware you can easily tell how much higher quality it is over "generic" glassware. It's thick, heavy, and well made. The diffuser discs diffuse evenly compared to "generic" diffusers, the glass isn't thin or wavy like generic stuff... overall it's just very high quality and worth the money in my opinion.

We do not know how much ADA pays for the raw materials to make their stuff, but a lot of the cost is shipping costs from Japan to the US. They have to pay their craftsmen as well, and then the U.S. distributor has to make a profit as well.
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:48 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: There is another brand of stainless steel canister filter coming out soon!

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Originally Posted by JustLikeAPill View Post
ADA uses Pyrex brand glass for their pipes at least (isn't mentioned in the other instructions for my other glassware) and not generic borosilicate glass. The glass they use is really thick compared to "generic" stuff you can get off of ebay... I have knocked my pipes and other glassware a lot and it is all just fine. I have broken "generic" diffuser and pipes just by cleaning them or trying to put the hose on, however.

If you've ever used the glassware you can easily tell how much higher quality it is over "generic" glassware. It's thick, heavy, and well made. The diffuser discs diffuse evenly compared to "generic" diffusers, the glass isn't thin or wavy like generic stuff... overall it's just very high quality and worth the money in my opinion.

We do not know how much ADA pays for the raw materials to make their stuff, but a lot of the cost is shipping costs from Japan to the US. They have to pay their craftsmen as well, and then the U.S. distributor has to make a profit as well.
Pyrex is slightly more understandable. It's a tough glass. My graduated cylinders that I "borrowed"for dosing are made of the stuff and they can even stand being dropped. But even then a pyrex graduated cylinder is only about 5 bucks. It doesn't warrant the expense...Now as for distribution. Maybe. I can see that as a legitimate reason but:
http://www.adana.co.jp/jp/products/na_co2/pollen_glass/

Which is 62 of our dollars.
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Old 07-02-2011, 10:02 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: There is another brand of stainless steel canister filter coming out soon!

ADG is selling those for $58 bucks ; P Cheaper than ADA!
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