Low KH and pH crash - Fertilizing - Aquatic Plant Central

Go Back   Aquatic Plant Central > Special Interest Forums > Fertilizing

Fertilizing Science of Aquatic Fertilizing - Discuss fertilizing techniques and proper aquatic plant nutrition here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-10-2006, 07:43 PM   #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Edward's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: at home
Posts: 2,035
iTrader Ratings: 0
Edward is a valuable member of the community Edward is a valuable member of the community
Default Low KH and pH crash

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiki
What I want to say is that, due extremely low buffer capacity such as kH zero, pH value simply can not be stabile, especially if you use pressurized CO2 at the same time. Therefore, I've been trying to avoid often fluctuation of pH caused by buffer insufficiency in aquarium water, as they can cause a lot of problems regarding the fishes health and possible stress. In addition, I would appreciate if you could make a short list of aquatic plants and fishes that you successfully grow at KH zero, using the CO2 injection at the same time.
Personally, I am not sure if the CO2 tables we use are correct. After spending years chasing KH, CO2 and pH I found easier way. No KH buffering, no pH testing and no sick fish and plants. Actually, fish are much happier and plants grow even healthier. The plant list includes several dozen plant species from Echinodorus and Cryptocoryne to Wallichii and Toninas. Never had a plant that wouldnít like it. Lower the KH nicer the plant.

Fish I have are Tetras, Angels, Altums and Discus, naturally soft water fish. Brackish and Tanganyikan Cichlids are not compatible of course.

Generally fish donít like pH changes and high CO2. The actual pH doesnít matter. CO2 is natural to the fish. It creates stability at pH ~ 5.6. It never goes bellow 5 or so. (As an experiment I added peat moss to lower it even more, bellow CO2 capacity of 5.65 to 3.7 and still no problem)

We can not stress more the need to use CO2 only. No other acids are safe.
If you see your fish in stress or dead then it is due to high CO2, poison or non CO2 acid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by banderbe
Hi Edward. How do you avoid the dreaded pH crash? Or is that just another myth?
Can you define such crash?
What we see is CO2 overdose not pH crash. It is the CO2 killing the fish not the low pH.

Tropical rainy season removes carbonates (KH) buffering and takes large amounts of humic and carbonic (CO2) acid. Are there casualties because of some pH crash? No.

We shouldnít be afraid exploring more natural approach growing fish and plants in our aquariums.


Thank you
Edward

Last edited by Edward; 12-17-2006 at 09:47 AM..
Edward is offline   Reply With Quote

Advertisement [Remove Advertisement]
Old 06-10-2006, 09:34 PM   #2 (permalink)
Moderator
 
hoppycalif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Brentwood, CA, USA
Posts: 6,861
iTrader Ratings: 22
iTrader Positive Rating: 100%
hoppycalif is a valuable member of the community hoppycalif is a valuable member of the community hoppycalif is a valuable member of the community
Default

Great post Edward! Your explanation fits all of the facts I know of. You say you don't think the pH/KH tables give good numbers for CO2 - I agree with that. How do you measure or estimate how much CO2 you have in the water?
hoppycalif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2006, 07:30 AM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Edward's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: at home
Posts: 2,035
iTrader Ratings: 0
Edward is a valuable member of the community Edward is a valuable member of the community
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppycalif
Great post Edward! Your explanation fits all of the facts I know of. You say you don't think the pH/KH tables give good numbers for CO2 - I agree with that. How do you measure or estimate how much CO2 you have in the water?
Thank you hoppycalif
Not knowing the CO2 level worried me for some time. When everything was growing well I couldnít test it due to the KH being at zero. One dose of baking soda exposed the probable CO2 level of 10-15 ppm. This was enough under high light 6 Watts per gallon PC.

Here are the CO2 rates:
10 gall => 10 bubbles / min
50 gall => 50 bubbles / min
100 gall => 100 bubbles / min

I would like to add that tiny aeration is beneficial when fish is in the aquarium.


Thank you
Edward
Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Old 06-11-2006, 08:23 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 79
iTrader Ratings: 7
iTrader Positive Rating: 100%
Krisybabe9 is a regular member
Default

I like the idea and the information that you posted.
I'm interested in giving it a shot.

I currently buffer with baking soda. How would I go about making the change in such a way that avoids fish stress? Anytime I try to reduce the amount of buffer I add my fish gasp at the surface.
Krisybabe9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2006, 08:58 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 302
iTrader Ratings: 0
Glouglou is a regular member
Default PH crash is not a mith.

What is "pH crash?" Simply, this is when the buffers in your water are all used up and the pH of the water plummets. This is not good for the tank inhabitants or the biofilter. Many of the nitrifying bacteria are inactive at a pH below 6.0.

It happen to my tank and my Hagen KH test at this time show around 1 mg/l.

My Ph went to around 5 in matter of hours.
Liquid CaCo3 was administered, no fish loss.

I was working with Hagen CO2 system at that time, I, only in rare occasion manage to have around 20mg/l of CO2.

Last edited by Glouglou; 06-13-2006 at 04:33 PM..
Glouglou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2006, 05:24 AM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Bert H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Alachua, Fl
Posts: 5,444
iTrader Ratings: 125
iTrader Positive Rating: 100%
Bert H is a valuable member of the community Bert H is a valuable member of the community Bert H is a valuable member of the community
Default

Edward, help me understand here. Are you saying that in your opinion/experience the actual pH is not important (as long as it doesn't drop below 5), but stability is the important factor? A bubble rate of approx 1 per second in your 50 gives you a pH of 5 and fish and plants are happy?
Bert H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2006, 07:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Edward's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: at home
Posts: 2,035
iTrader Ratings: 0
Edward is a valuable member of the community Edward is a valuable member of the community
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krisybabe9
Anytime I try to reduce the amount of buffer I add my fish gasp at the surface.
All of my 13 aquariums donít have any pH buffers and KH and still, I never see any fish gasping for air. All tanks run CO2.

What kind of fish do you have?
Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2006, 08:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Edward's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: at home
Posts: 2,035
iTrader Ratings: 0
Edward is a valuable member of the community Edward is a valuable member of the community
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert H
Edward, help me understand here. Are you saying that in your opinion/experience the actual pH is not important (as long as it doesn't drop below 5), but stability is the important factor? A bubble rate of approx 1 per second in your 50 gives you a pH of 5 and fish and plants are happy?
Sure the pH can go bellow 5 that is not a problem. I am saying that the pH due to CO2 will stop at around 5.
I had a group of 8 Tetras in pH of 3.7 for 3 years. Peat addition with CO2 pushed the pH that low. They multiplied to 20 fish on their own. I still have them today in the same aquarium. Very healthy fish.

People think when fish die due to pH rapid change from 8 to 5 that the reason is the 5. This assumption is wrong. If the pH changes from 5 to 8 the fish will also die. The rate of change is the reason, not the actual pH.

I no longer test for pH because it is irrelevant. The fish donít care.


Thank you
Edward
Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2006, 09:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,194
iTrader Ratings: 48
iTrader Positive Rating: 100%
chiahead is a regular member
Default

Edward just curious do you shut the Co2 off at night or leave it on 24/7?
chiahead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2006, 05:30 AM   #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Edward's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: at home
Posts: 2,035
iTrader Ratings: 0
Edward is a valuable member of the community Edward is a valuable member of the community
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiahead
Edward just curious do you shut the Co2 off at night or leave it on 24/7?
Hi chiahead
Good you asked because I see a potential problem with turning the CO2 off at night. Look how many hours it takes to get CO2 out of water. In this great post #1 by hoppycalif:
https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...vant-data.html
It must take a long time to get it back in.

This is why I let the CO2 on continuously 24/7 without interruption.


Thank you
Edward
Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Aquatic Plant Central > Special Interest Forums > Fertilizing > Low KH and pH crash

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:41 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1