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Fish for the Planted Aquarium Planted Aquarium Fish - Discuss which type of aquarium fish are best suited for the aquatic plant environment you have created. Create a natural home for aquarium fish using aquatic plants.

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Old 05-19-2006, 12:39 PM   #21 (permalink)
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One simple and got method, let the fish sit at the LFS for 3 -4 weeks before buying them. You can put a deposit on them. Tell the LFS, whoesaler etc, you'll get them but you are waiting for the new tank it get set up or just say you have something to deal with etc.

Or just wait and hope no one buys them up.

If they die, then it's the LFS's lost and they likely had a something wrong with them.

I never buy fish that have not been there for some time prior.

I agree about the TB, and other diseases, they are extremely rampant in breeding facilities. They don't want you to know that, many are unaware, many simply don't know how to deal with the issues, some are unwilling to put $$$ into control also. They still get paid as long as the fish make it alive, then the wholesaler takes the hit. If not the wholesaler, then the LFS, if not the LFS, then you.

The longer you wait, the higher the chance the fish will be free of the disease and be the stronger batch of the cohort.

The wholesaler I deal with has issues with some sellers/fish and it's not the water. Water quality is very high as my own tanks.

If you insituted proper health care and ethics for the fish hobby across the board, the cost would increase 50-200%, but the quality would be very high also. Only one or two LFS in our area does quarantines. Most LFS's and almost all wholesalers do not.

Regards,
Tom Barr
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Old 05-21-2006, 07:08 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I'd like to add to the good points made by Tom and JanS:

The well-managed store that I used to shop at was like the one JanS described. (JanS, you're so lucky to have one!) Employees, who all belonged the local fish club, wouldn't let you buy if they thought you were overstocking a new tank, etc. I still remember that they cut me off after a certain number of Rainbowfish! Every morning employees removed dead fish from the tanks... a major disease-management measure. When you went in, there was always water on the floor from people cleaning tanks, etc. Tanks with diseased fish were set aside for quarantine and treatment. I bought many healthy fish from that store when I started setting up tanks again in 1987. I think the healthy fish I got from this store maintained much of my subsequent enthusiasm. This store was always bustling. Evenings, you could hardly get inside. I really miss it.

Another tip to add to Tom's advice on dealing with stores:

No matter how healthy the one fish you want to buy looks, if its tankmates are sick, don't buy it! If there are dead or sick fish in the tank, that should tell you right-off that the store is not serious about disease-management and doesn't care what they sell.

Tuberculosis is currently rampant in the aquarium hobby. If some of the fish in the store's tank are sick, it is more than likely (I'd guess 50:50 odds) that the tankmates that look healthy may be carrying tuberculosis (or some other disease) and will succumb within a few weeks.
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Old 05-22-2006, 08:12 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwalstad
Every morning employees removed dead fish from the tanks... a major disease-management measure.
Where I used to live in Central NY the two locally owned fish stores were actually terrible places to shop...dirty, overstocked, and run by uninformed individuals. In one of them the staff would actually purposely leave the dead fish in the tanks. One of the employees informed me that she thought, "it is better anyway to do this, eating them gives the other fish something to do all day". This made the local PetSmart the place I eventually had to turn to to get fish because at least there they kept the tanks clean, oddly enough though, it is where I got the disease infested tetras I will be euthanizing later today after I finish my coffee and get off APC. Essentially, the Ithaca area is a sink for tropical fish... so sad really.

So now that I live in Michigan I totally appreciate the two or three really good stores I have access to. The staff at these places are sooo much more knowledgable, talk to you about your tanks, quarantine their fish, and order from seemingly better sources. I am very very lucky.
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Old 05-22-2006, 01:15 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Thanks for the informative and thoughful answers. Especially if the disease is passed through the mother, this warrants against having kept the solitary Guppy/Endler offspring, even if it had survived.

And by all means, I think pet shop workers should be informed of the risks! This suddenly called to mind a young guy I saw cleaning a tank, with significant "Asphalt Burns" on his arm (the one in the tank) and leg - looked like the results of a skateboarding mishap. Eeek.

OK, well, I won't get overly anxious about the situation, but will keep an eye on the Platys, as you suggested. It is such a shame, as it does quash some enthusiasm for the hobby.

Well, all good information.
Thanks!
-Jane
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Old 08-08-2006, 06:05 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Does anyone know how TB would manifest itself in bettas?

My fish room has been closed apart from blackworms as live food for six months and the only problem I have is the slow continuously swelling stomachs which I put down to a parasite in the blackworm. No treatments seem to work... but I assumed it wasn't contagious fish to fish.
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Old 08-08-2006, 08:40 AM   #26 (permalink)
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interesting thread, diana, jan, jane!
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Old 08-09-2006, 05:18 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwalstad
Because of disease prevalence in guppies and symptoms you've described, I would guess that it is tuberculosis. Their bodies are filled with fluid, not babies. Normal guppies don't hold their babies for months. Below is a well-written article about Fish TB in Rainbowfish that describes the myriad of bizarre symptoms, including body swelling. The swelling can, in my opinion, come from either an internal build-up of ascites fluid (Dropsy) or a liver malfunction that makes the fish overweight. Two of my Rainbowfish became grossly overweight from the disease.

http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Myco.htm
Does anyone know if these symptoms present the same in bettas?

I was patting myself on the back for eradicating all the usual betta diseases like finrot etc but I think I patted too soon.
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Old 11-14-2006, 12:26 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentacles View Post
Does anyone know if these symptoms present the same in bettas?

I was patting myself on the back for eradicating all the usual betta diseases like finrot etc but I think I patted too soon.
Hey Tentacles,

Sorry, I didn't get to your letter sooner.

Yes, Bettas get Fish TB. In fact, I have about 3 scientific papers describing infections in breeding farms of Siamese Fighting Fish. If any tropical fish died of swollen belly, I would suspect Fish TB.

The disease is widespread. One scientific survey (autopsies and histological exams) of 70 dead aquarium fish found that 1/2 clearly died of it.

I actually should have called the disease MB (mycobacteriosis). It is the fish/reptile equivalent of human tuberculosis, and just as devastating.

The Mycobacterium species responsible for the disease are related to Mycobacterium tuberculosis, the bacteria responsible for human tuberculosis.

Scientists are using Mycobacterium marinum infections in Zebrafish as a disease model to safely study the highly dangerous human tuberculosis bacteria. Ironically, there have been several scientific papers now on devastating mycobacteriosis outbreaks in these laboratory Zebrafish colonies. Ironic, because I'm sure that the scientists have screened in-coming fish and given them optimal care.

I hope to publish major article on mycobacteriosis next year. It's a very important and interesting topic.
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Old 11-14-2006, 05:50 PM   #29 (permalink)
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This is a great thread with tons of good information. One point that is important to remember......

The presence of a bacteria or virus does not always produce a disease in the host. In fact, it almost never does. The immune system of fish is no less robust than our own. Even in humans, TB often remains dormant for years and years. In the majority of cases, an infected person shows no outward signs or symptoms and usually dies of something else. So why do we worry about it? Well, there are still a good number of people that do show symptoms and world-wide, it remains a serious disease that kills millions.

Diana already said it, but it's worth emphasizing again - mycobacterium infection in fish is NOT the same disease as TB in humans.

Fish that are stressed are more susceptible to disease. A clean environment, good food, and proper care go a long way. Even fish that are infected can sometimes live perfectly normal lives if the infection does not get out of control. Some will still die, and a new infection introduced with new fish can be devastating. Healthy fish subjected to the abuses of bulk handling, wholesale distribution, and highly variable LFS practices can easily come down with something. Think of it like what happens to humans when subjected to forced-labor camps and such.

One of the best parts of keeping live plants is that it generally results in a great environment for the fish. If nothing else, they're usually being cared for by someone with a bit of intelligence and an actual commitment to the hobby. On average, this will result in lower infection rates, living longer, and more "normal" behavior.
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Old 11-16-2006, 02:37 AM   #30 (permalink)
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dwalstad,
I am here and read from other forum you linked here.
Is there any place esle to look as links to read.


That goes for other members too for me to look and read up on also.
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