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Old 04-25-2006, 09:35 PM   #21 (permalink)
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No, the temperature of the new water is within 1-2 degrees of the old water, so it's not that.

At least in my case, I think it's just an excess of CO2 from tap water mostly. Excess CO2 in the water would cause more photosynthesis and creation of oxygen till the CO2 levels dropped back to what they normally are. I use Aqua Plus by Hagen as a water conditioner and I'm pretty sure it binds ammonia, so I doubt that is playing a major role.

I'm talking about bubbles visibly coming from plant leaves as well, not bubbles on the glass or other rough surfaces.

I'll try degassing a cup of water as suggested and try to measure my CO2 levels more accurately than the chart. In the end, I think I'll have to add another CO2 generator. I'll let you all know the results of both!
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Old 04-26-2006, 09:02 AM   #22 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taekwondodo
Tom,

My tank is normally pH of 6.3/6.4 with a dKh of 4-5 (estimate 50-60ppm - I had the pH down to 6.0 a while back and the glosso was growing tall (220W PCFs)). The RO water probably lessens the CO2 amount in the tank (I doubt the RO is over 50ppm CO2...).

Other than increasing the redox (no, I don't measure it, just a guess) the only other thing I can think of would be the increase in O2 (I pour the water in...).

- Jeff
High light does not in anyway imply tall Gloss or short Gloss.
The leggy appearence is due to Phytochrome and shading, not intensity.
O2 and redox are related. If the RO water is allowed to degas for 24 hours prior............then yes, the other assumption is that the CO2 popm is really what you state. No error on your part, but the test and other assumptions in the testing method can get you in trouble.

How many times have we seen recently where folks have 100-200ppm CO2 ranges and things look fine?

Regards,
Tom Barr
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Old 04-26-2006, 09:07 AM   #23 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLudwig
I do plan on adding NH4, I'm quite confident my plants and biofilter can handle it and even if something terrible algae-wise happens I know how to take care of almost anything, just requires patience and elbow grease.

Jeff
Good, now newbies, do not go and do this, Jeff is well aware!
UV is about the best tool for the GW if you over do it.
We tried this in our club about 5-6 years ago.
No one is doing it any longer, it did not produce the massive pearling folks often see associated with the Water changes, if it was the cause, then it never manifested itself, I'd say it was nothing more than a passing fad for us here. It was playing with fire for little gain.

The water changes and intense pearling is the same effect I got when I started using CO2 mist methods.

That same response I have seen upon the addition of a treatment.
So...........that would seem much strong observational evidence that the cause is due to CO2, not NH4, or these other factors.

Colder water will hold more gas, but not that much more.

Regards,
Tom Barr
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Old 04-26-2006, 03:36 PM   #24 (permalink)
 
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If it is because of the CO2, then why does my tap water have higher PH than the water in my tank (both have the same KH)? This means that the CO2 in tap water should be less than in the tank.

I do a 70% WC weekly so when it comes to KH I suspect it won't be much different than the tap water. Still whenever I do a WC, I measure PH 7.3, and my computer is set to PH 6.8.
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Old 04-26-2006, 07:47 PM   #25 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonklers
If it is because of the CO2, then why does my tap water have higher PH than the water in my tank (both have the same KH)? This means that the CO2 in tap water should be less than in the tank.

I do a 70% WC weekly so when it comes to KH I suspect it won't be much different than the tap water. Still whenever I do a WC, I measure PH 7.3, and my computer is set to PH 6.8.
True, but don't your plants get exposed to the air when you do 70% water changes? Off hand I've seen high pH water with high CO2 as well.
But I'm not quite sure if this applies here. My gut say no. But I might be wrong here.

I'm racking my brains as they added ployphosphate to reduce scale, but that was downstream from the treatment plant. Some places do partial lime softening, this sends the pH very high(OH-'s are all over), then the CaCO3 preciptates out at about a pH of 10.1. This is also how shells are formed with coral, snails, calcerous algae.

They often add CO2 to lower the pH afterwards.
This in effect adds more CO2, but still has a higher pH.
Pressure water or well water sources almost always have more CO2 as well.

Still, I'm not sure and have no clue as to thwe tap water sources you have.
I would guess the plants being exposed for a little while to the air for the increased pearling.

PO4 additions can cause increases in pearlign you can certainly see, as dramatic as adding CO2 if everything else is in good shape and the PO4 was limited prior, I've never found that to be the case with NH4.

That might be part of it as well.

Regards,
Tom Barr
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Old 04-27-2006, 06:32 AM   #26 (permalink)
 
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Ok, I guess measuring CO2 indirectly with PH meter and KH isn't very reliable. If there was such a thing to measure CO2 directly, then it would be interesting to measure the CO2 right before and after a WC. And yes a lot of the plants do get exposed to the air when doing a WC, be it directly (for high big plants) or indirectly via fine bubbles which are created by turbulence/pressure/all the mechanical processes of tap water going into the tank.

The big question to me is that if the massive pearling is due to the tap water itself, or due to the proces of a WC. If it's because of the "new water" then there is some nutrient depleted (CO2, micro/macro nutrient etc) at some point during the week.
I account "Plants being exposed for a while to the air for the increased pearling" to the process of a WC itself. Just like the fine bubbles that's produced when doing a WC.

To see which of the two is responsible for the massive pearling, I come to think of a low budget experiment. What if I do a WC with old water. So I drain 70% away from the tank, and put it back in the same way as I do with tap water: with a small hose under pressure. If I get massive pearling then it's due to the process of a WC itself, if I don't get pearling then it's due to the "new water". Ofcourse I cant do this experiment, at first I have to have a 80 gallon tank to store the old water, and a pump which gives me the exact pressure as my tap water does. What do you guys think about this "experiment"?
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Old 04-27-2006, 09:57 AM   #27 (permalink)
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The results of degassing a cup of tank water for 24 hours shows that while my tank pH levels are around 7.0, the pH in the cup was around 7.8. Not quite the 1pH difference to reach 30ppm CO2 Bert H suggested earlier. Anyone know how accurate this is?

Also, my plants were not exposed to air while doing the W/C. I only did a 30% change.

I am interested in Bonklers' experiment, it seems like it would at least shed some light on whether or not it's a concentration of gas in the water or some nutrient from tap water that's causing the pearling. I'd like to try it, but I don't have any pumps to use. Perhaps you could just siphon some water out into a tub and then pour the water back in at roughly the same rate?
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Old 04-27-2006, 12:11 PM   #28 (permalink)
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DJK,

A 0.8 pH drop will put you at about 19 or 20 ppm CO2. It's a logarithmic scale so a 1.0 drop in pH is actually a lot more a 0.8 pH drop. The method should be quite accurate IMO.

One caveat. Obtaining a 1.0 unit drop indicates an appropriate and reproducible quantity of CO2 for good plant growth. Is the actual concentration of CO2 once you achieve this exactly 30ppm? It depends on the actual equilibrium concentration of CO2 in water exposed to the atmosphere. Since there is some debate on this exact number, I can't be certain that a 1.0 pH drop represents exactly 30 ppm CO2. It does indicate that you have 10 times the concentration of CO2 at atmospheric equilibrium. A pH drop of 0.8 units will equal 6.3 times the atmospheric concentration.
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Old 04-27-2006, 12:52 PM   #29 (permalink)
 
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If you do see better growth/pearling after a water change, it means generally you can improve the method you are doing during the rest of the week, this is generally a CO2 related issue if you use something like EI for dosing.
So you can add more, or change to mist type of method.



Regards,
Tom Barr
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Old 04-27-2006, 07:35 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Tom,

What exactly is the mist method? Do you mean a CO2 reactor that creates a mist?
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