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Old 11-14-2018, 02:20 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Identify deficiency/toxicity

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Originally Posted by galdadi View Post
Hi guys, I posted some posts before, l'm dosing EI method. My tank is 300 l (79 gal), I give per week: nitrate 29 ppm , phos 9 ppm, potassium 35 ppm, mg 1 ppm and iron 0.84 ppm.
My water parameters are gh 8, kh 4 , pH 6.5, nitrate 10 ppm, phos 1.8 ppm, TDS around 250. Lights are 4*54w t5, 3 lumilux and one Sylvania growlux on for 8 hours a day.
I'm doing weekly 30% water change with RO water.
My plants doesn't seem to cope with my dosing method. Can you help me what I'm doing wrong?

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Hi @galdadi,


Before you start playing with the light intensity and photoperiod I suggest increasing your magnesium dosing. Why? I removed several of the pictures of your original post but saved these for illustration. Do you see the curled/rolled leaf margins in the photo below? Also, the older leaf at the bottom left of the photo has interveinal chlorosis (green veins / lighter in-between).



And the wavy, leaves in the photo below?




Both of these are symptoms of a magnesium deficiency. Here is a good description of what happens with a magnesium deficiency:
Quote:
II. Symptoms do not appear first or most severely on youngest leaves: Effect general on whole plant or localized on older, lower leaves.

C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.

1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency

When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is remobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern. Leaves are abnormally thin, stems are brittle and branches have a tendency to curve upward. Stems are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely.
Here is what I suggest: Pick up some Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate / MgSO4*7 H2O) at you local drug store or grocery. Get the cheap stuff with no fragrance or additives. Do an initial dose of 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons. Thereafter, when you do water changes, dose 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added to the tank.

Now the hard part.........................wait!

If we are on the right path this is what should happen over the next couple of weeks. The new leaves that emerge should be healthier, greener, larger, and not have the curling / twisting margins. Do not watch the existing leaves - they will not change and may continue to decline. Post pictures as things progress and keep us posted, you should see healthier new growth in a couple of weeks.

You may also need some calcium but with a 8.0 dGH let's try just adding some magnesium first and see how the plants respond. -Roy
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Old 11-16-2018, 06:32 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Identify deficiency/toxicity

Seattle -- where is the quote in the gray box copied from? I'd like to see the full article. Is it something you wrote? Thanks!
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Old 11-16-2018, 09:20 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Identify deficiency/toxicity

Hi @Gerald,


It is from a defunct website.
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Old 11-18-2018, 11:23 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Identify deficiency/toxicity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @galdadi,


Before you start playing with the light intensity and photoperiod I suggest increasing your magnesium dosing. Why? I removed several of the pictures of your original post but saved these for illustration. Do you see the curled/rolled leaf margins in the photo below? Also, the older leaf at the bottom left of the photo has interveinal chlorosis (green veins / lighter in-between).



And the wavy, leaves in the photo below?




Both of these are symptoms of a magnesium deficiency. Here is a good description of what happens with a magnesium deficiency:


Here is what I suggest: Pick up some Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate / MgSO4*7 H2O) at you local drug store or grocery. Get the cheap stuff with no fragrance or additives. Do an initial dose of 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons. Thereafter, when you do water changes, dose 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added to the tank.

Now the hard part.........................wait!

If we are on the right path this is what should happen over the next couple of weeks. The new leaves that emerge should be healthier, greener, larger, and not have the curling / twisting margins. Do not watch the existing leaves - they will not change and may continue to decline. Post pictures as things progress and keep us posted, you should see healthier new growth in a couple of weeks.

You may also need some calcium but with a 8.0 dGH let's try just adding some magnesium first and see how the plants respond. -Roy
Cool, I do add Epsom salt once a week after 30% water change (about half teaspoon). But not regulary like you offered. I Never thought about adding Mg because of my high gh/kh. I lowered the lights, the green fuzz seems to disappear slowly, but I worry my reinicki mini don't get enough light. I'll go on with the plan and see how it works.
1. Do you know how many ppm of magnesium I need to add (daily or weekly) so I can make my own solution and start dosing with liquid (dry fertilization tend to be messy)?
2. And what about calcium? Should I add or leave it? And if so, how many ppm per day/week?
3. In the article you quoted it says potassium and calcium overdose can affect Mg absorption. How many ppm of potassium should I add weekly in you opinion?
Thanks!

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Last edited by galdadi; 11-18-2018 at 11:53 PM..
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Old 11-19-2018, 07:19 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Identify deficiency/toxicity

Quote:
Originally Posted by galdadi View Post
Cool, I do add Epsom salt once a week after 30% water change (about half teaspoon). But not regulary like you offered. I Never thought about adding Mg because of my high gh/kh. I lowered the lights, the green fuzz seems to disappear slowly, but I worry my reinicki mini don't get enough light. I'll go on with the plan and see how it works.
1. Do you know how many ppm of magnesium I need to add (daily or weekly) so I can make my own solution and start dosing with liquid (dry fertilization tend to be messy)?
2. And what about calcium? Should I add or leave it? And if so, how many ppm per day/week?
3. In the article you quoted it says potassium and calcium overdose can affect Mg absorption. How many ppm of potassium should I add weekly in you opinion?
Thanks!

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Hi @galdadi,


1) 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of Epsom Salt (MgSO4*7H2O) = 6.5 ppm of Mg and will increase the hardness by about 1.5 dGH


2) I saw none of the obvious symptoms of a calcium deficiency when viewing the plants in your pictures.


3) Typically about 20 - 30 ppm total of potassium per week.


Post pics as things progress, we are here to help! -Roy
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Old 11-26-2018, 11:41 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Identify deficiency/toxicity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @galdadi,


1) 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of Epsom Salt (MgSO4*7H2O) = 6.5 ppm of Mg and will increase the hardness by about 1.5 dGH


2) I saw none of the obvious symptoms of a calcium deficiency when viewing the plants in your pictures.


3) Typically about 20 - 30 ppm total of potassium per week.


Post pics as things progress, we are here to help! -Roy
Ok so an update after a week.
New leaves seems to do better in rotala marcandra for example, but button leaves are loosing colour from tip to base, then after dying.
I also start having cyanobacteria issues , so I assume the last two symptoms are nitrogen deficiency so I increased kno3 dosing. I'll see what's going on.
Fuzz algae ate much less present in the tank since I reduced lights by half. But also plant grow are slower.
I give Epsom salt 6 ppm of Mg for a week.
My gh is 6, kh 4, nitrate 5-10 ppm, phosphorus 1.8 ppm, pH 6.5, TDS around 300. Lights are 1 t5 Osram lumilux 54w 6500k, and 1 t5 Sylvania growlux 54w 8500k. Lights are on for 7 hours a day, with 4 hours break in the middle of the day.
Any ideas for changing my dosing/lights?

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Old 11-26-2018, 08:58 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Identify deficiency/toxicity

Hi @galdadi,


There seems to be some improvement but I would have expected more.



Do you think you could get me a more 'in focus' shot of the photo below please?



What are you dosing for micro-nutrients?
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Old 11-27-2018, 03:40 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Identify deficiency/toxicity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @galdadi,


There seems to be some improvement but I would have expected more.



Do you think you could get me a more 'in focus' shot of the photo below please?



What are you dosing for micro-nutrients?
Thanks for the quick reply. I used to dose plantex csm+b 0.1 ppm of iron everyday. Guys told me that maybe I have toxicity, so now I'm dosing iron gluconate 0.1 ppm of iron 5 days a week, and on the sixth day I give the usual dose of plantex (according to 0.1 ppm of iron).
I post some pics, some plants are doing fine but other look bad.

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Last edited by galdadi; 11-27-2018 at 03:51 AM..
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Old 11-27-2018, 07:16 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Identify deficiency/toxicity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @galdadi,


There seems to be some improvement but I would have expected more.



Do you think you could get me a more 'in focus' shot of the photo below please?


What are you dosing for micro-nutrients?
I took some photos with my macro lens camera of the ludwigia rubin that you asked, after cleaning it from algae and dust. there is intervein chlorosis as you suspected. here are the photos hope this will help diagnosing the problem
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