barbarossa4122

Great work. Thanks.

Philosophos

Both of these lists/diagrams are missing the most common deficiency I've ever had to deal with; CO2.

Most of it looks like calcium issues, and for the most part those in denial about their CO2 levels (we've all been there) tend to go on and on about their, "calcium deficiency"

I think it'd be worth further defining and adding to the list.

nfrank

I recently was led to believe that CO2 deficiency can also look like N deficiency - in some plants. See this TBR Discussion about my "Rubin Narrow Leaf" which is pictured here on APC, as part of my 120g journal below.

I am currently exploring the possibility that this sword is experiencing CO2 (and/or illumination) deficiency.

Philosophos

It wouldn't surprise me to see it as N. CO2 can look like K+ as well; structural failure causes holes.

Right now I'm showing CO2 deficiency in some staurogyne from changing my flow dynamics. I'd be screaming N, K and Fe deficiency if I didn't know well enough to look at the staurogyne that's not in dense patches. This is in fresh aquasoil with me dosing more than standard EI under mid to low light levels, using tons of flow, a wave timer and a SCWD, so obviously it's not nutrients or nutrient distribution.

This is why I think there needs to be a discussion on the nature of the deficiency, why it manifests as it does, how to spot it, etc. before it just gets dropped on to a chart as a little side note.

nfrank

SCWD is something i had not previously heard. I had to look it up: http://www.fishtanksdirect.com/scwdc...ngvalve34.aspx

How do you have it hooked up? Nutrient and/or CO2 flow may be part of my rubin problem.

Philosophos

I attached mine to the outtake of my XP4 using a 5/8 to 3/4 barbed adaptor. I hung it with some plastic coated wire off the back of the tank, and used a couple of 3/4 inch outtakes. Right now the outtakes are fan-shaped with a ball joint, but I'd like to flip to eductors and modular hosing.

Using a SCWD and Ocean Pulse Duo has made CO2 distribution WAY easier. The 10 second switching allows two viaaqua 480's to run as needle wheels without the CO2 backing up. I've split the duo's outlets to allow for a couple koralia nanos as well.

wet

Awesome job so far hariom and a great tool side by side with Zapins's diagram, too.
I think the way to properly label CO2 on the chart is, just on the right of the current list, block the whole plant and within say: "CO2". I'm serious -- it's by far the biggest macro and, you're right, it can show any of these symptoms.

goldier

CO2 deficiency symptoms that mimic other nutrient deficiencies is an interesting concept. El natural aquariums don’t have CO2 injection, and the plants grow fine. Other factors at work?

Philosophos

CO2 is essential to so many compounds that a lack of it causes multiple issues throughout the plant. Look at chlorophyll; by atomic weight it's mostly carbon, by atomic ratio it's still around 2/5ths carbon with a lot of the rest being hydrogen (not exactly hard to come by). Even more of the plants rigid structure depends on carbon, so that fails with a CO2 deficiency too. Gradually developing (days or more) leaf transparency with structural failure always points at a lack of CO2 to me.

NPT's get CO2 issues too, some more than others. Every style of planted tank that I have ever seen has the potential. there's a bit more of a tendency towards K+ deficiency in these tanksbecause it's hard to get without dosing, and the substrate/fish food provides plenty of N and P. Within NPT's, the most popular style is of course El natural. With this method CO2 is gotten around because the system works on not disturbing your tank, leaving lots of organics to break down to produce CO2, and keeping light low. There are mid-day breaks worked in that help quite a bit as well. Even so, BBA happens in these tanks which indicates CO2 issues. It's more often a matter of experience than being of any major method, because the principles are all the same, and the methods are all well tested.

Showing CO2 deficiencies as an entire leaf thing is a very good idea.

nfrank

That is a very good question.

Plants can grow "fine" and yet a few leaves on some plants may show a nutrient deficiency. For example, some of the leaves of a single species can show a deficiency, and yet every other plant (all different species) in the tank can look perfect. Also, it is not uncommon for folks that grow sword plants (Echindorous) to trim the outer leaves when they start to look bad. Is the plant growing "fine?" Probably yes. Could it look better, also yes. Can it be grown so that the outer leaves hardly ever need to be trimmed - again yes.

In general, "El Natural" aquariums cannot support the same plant diversity as a tank with CO2 injection and with regular additions of other nutrients. Same is true in terrestrial gardening. So, it all depends on what you mean by "fine."