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Bunbuku 12-14-2008 06:01 AM

Re: Pruning timeline...
 
This thread has given me the audacity to trim!

I have a dumb question, here goes.....For stems that have big root balls, uprooting can be a big mess. Will cutting the old stems off at the substrate and replanting new stems over it work?

Tex Gal 12-14-2008 06:35 AM

Re: Pruning timeline...
 
The El Natural people do this all the time. They use it as a source of nutrition for the plants. I always worry because that will rot under there and bacteria will grow. You'll have a huge pocket for ammonia and sulfur gasses to form. I guess if you don't ever disturb that place until it is taken up by other plants you are fine. I know when I have had a bulb rot I have seen a bubble of the sulfur gas released from time to time. Wonder what others have to say?....




rodrigaj 12-14-2008 09:17 AM

Re: Pruning timeline...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunbuku (Post 436455)
This thread has given me the audacity to trim!

I have a dumb question, here goes.....For stems that have big root balls, uprooting can be a big mess. Will cutting the old stems off at the substrate and replanting new stems over it work?

Aside from the fact that the left over biomass will rot, there is the more practical problem of have a ball of roots under the gravel which will make replanting in that location difficult.

I always shut down the filter, pull out the stem and as much of the root ball as I can get. I shake out the gravel and replant. The mess in the water column settles and I vacuum out as much as I can get.

Plants like my Echinodorous kleiner bar can get so root bound that pulling it out of the substrate disturbs a huge area around the plant. The roots are entwined with the plants that grow around it. Everything gets pulled out and replanted as a result. A huge mess is created. But that's the way it is.

nfrank 12-14-2008 09:22 AM

Re: Pruning timeline...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex Gal (Post 436472)
The El Natural people do this all the time. They use it as a source of nutrition for the plants. I always worry because that will rot under there and bacteria will grow. ?....

Yes, bacteria will grow and it will be anaerobic ....and while it will eventually provide a source of nutrients, it is not the ideal environment for new plants as old stuff decomposes. Plants with large white roots, like Echinodorus can tolerate that environment because their sturdy roots will pump O2 creating a more favorable environment. However, it will likley be a larger struggle for many stem plants..., so getting the stuff out is best.

Regarding a large mass of root , you can try to lift out a small section at a time. I dont yank the entire plant all at once. This will usually create a mess. Instead, I get my fingers down in the substrate and try to pull up individual roots. This should leave behind the attached substrate particles and not make as much mess. Cavaet: I have done this with sand and fluorite and not with softer materials like ADA Aquasoil.

HeyPK 12-14-2008 09:53 AM

Re: Pruning timeline...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nfrank (Post 436226)
Thanks Aaron and GG. Those were the replies i was looking for.

I am not a stem plant guy , and not a aquascaper per se, so my experience in this arena is somewhat limited. However, one new plant that i have recently fallen in love which does not seem to have the ratty bottom issue is is Rotala verticillaris. It seems to behave different than other Rotala in that it puts out side shoots -- from the substrate-- without top trimming. It also seems to grow at less than half the rate as R. macrandra. In the new Amazonia, the macrandra has required weekly trimming. In my 4-week old substrate, the R.verticillaris has not been trimmed once. I may finally do it next week, but i am still somewhate reluctant because i am really enjoying the new fine leaves that it did not have in my older lower light tank. There, it produced thicker leaves that resembled emersed growth. The new 24" deep tank is under 4 T5 HO Geismanns. The older 16" deep tank with mature sand/peat substrate was illuminated with 4 NO T-12 Triton bulbs. There are many other differences besides lighting and substrate which might explain the verticillaris. In that slower grow tank, the macrandra also grew relative fast and required frequent trimming. On the other hand,
I dont think i topped the R.v in the several months i kept it. When i took the tank down last month, the small number of starting R.v stems had multiplied maybe 10-fold.
Another plant that does not seem to develop many annoying lower stem roots is the asian "pearl grass." One that is among the worst that i have seen is Ludwigia repens.
--Neil

According to Cavan, Rotala verticillaris may not be a Rotala at all, but rather a Pogostemon! He is doing more research on it.

Tex Gal 12-14-2008 09:59 AM

Re: Pruning timeline...
 
That Cavan! What would we do without him?! I hope we never have to find out! :D




Bunbuku 12-14-2008 11:57 AM

Re: Pruning timeline...
 
When you do a big hack job like that, is it necessary to adjust the CO2, photoperiod and the ferts? After all by doing a big trim you substantially reduce the plant mass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nfrank (Post 436517)
Regarding a large mass of root , you can try to lift out a small section at a time. I dont yank the entire plant all at once. This will usually create a mess. Instead, I get my fingers down in the substrate and try to pull up individual roots. This should leave behind the attached substrate particles and not make as much mess. Cavaet: I have done this with sand and fluorite and not with softer materials like ADA Aquasoil.

I found with Amazonia II when I yanked out a root ball from a Mirophyllium matogrossens I ended up with a huge dust could. Even with smaller stems like Rotala Vietnam I got a mini dust cloud. I think this is probably bec. Amazonia II disintegrates more easily. In contrast, with original Amazonia I have not had this happen.

AaronT 12-14-2008 12:17 PM

Re: Pruning timeline...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunbuku (Post 436559)
When you do a big hack job like that, is it necessary to adjust the CO2, photoperiod and the ferts? After all by doing a big trim you substantially reduce the plant mass.


I found with Amazonia II when I yanked out a root ball from a Mirophyllium matogrossens I ended up with a huge dust could. Even with smaller stems like Rotala Vietnam I got a mini dust cloud. I think this is probably bec. Amazonia II disintegrates more easily. In contrast, with original Amazonia I have not had this happen.

Just adjust the ferts down a little bit and you'll be fine. ADA's Green Gain seems to work well for helping them bounce back.

mrjg 12-17-2008 10:38 AM

Re: Pruning timeline...
 
I rarely post here and mostly lurk but just had to pop in to say thanks for the great thread. Its nice to see the trimming techniques and how it develops picture by picture.

Sunstar 01-20-2009 01:46 PM

Re: Pruning timeline...
 
I've been hacking back, but I think I will hack back more shortly.


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