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BBA immune to Excel?

7K views 55 replies 15 participants last post by  Chris. 
#1 ·
I have been noticing that the BBA in my tank seems to take longer to die when squirted with excel then it used to when I first started dosing excel. The BBA went from turning red the next day after application to requiring 2 applications to turn red.

Has anyone else noticed this in their tanks?

Does anyone think this might be a problem in the future? I haven't found anything else that really kills BBA off like excel (CO2 doesn't kill the tuft, spikey, dark green kind in my tank), so I wouldn't know what to do if it becomes resistant.
 
#7 ·
I use 3% H2O2 full strength as a plant dip for algae (including BBA) During WC's I uproot the affected plant and dip the leaves only for a couple of minutes.
Replant and the next day the algae are pink/orange in color. A couple of days later it's gone.
H2O2 used in moderation is safe for fish.
I've tried injecting 2 ml/gallon over the affected plant but it doesn't work for me like the full strength plant dip does.
I buy H2O2 at a local dollar store @ .50 a bottle.
Charles
 
#9 ·
Spot or regional treatment with a syringe is much succesful. I applied 25 ml everyother day for one of the show tanks, a 100 g. In each aplication with the above method I targeted a different location of the tank and in two weeks no sign of algea since a month. During this two weeks period I applied 30 % WC twice a week (instead of one 50 % in regular) and everything else was the same (dosing, lights, CO2).
 
#12 ·
Seachem recently upped the price of Excel. It is now retailing for $30+ thru FosterSmith and ThatPet Place. I hope its not less potent for more $$$.
 
#13 ·
I noticed with the bottle I just got that it doesn't smell as strong and doesn't give that "wavy-strong-chemical-being-added-to-water-look" that the old excel used to give.

As far as being algecidal, my opinion is that the active ingredient is gluteraldehyde (splelling? ) or something similar that acts like formaldehyde. Adding it directly to the water column gives the chemical a chance to spread out and become 'harmless' and then break down into CO2 + whatever else. When squirted directly on algae, the chemical binds the protiens of the thin-cell-walled algae and kills it.

Before anyone thinks I know what I'm talking about, I'll qualify the above by saying I have no idea how this stuff works, but I've read many, many comments from people who seem to have some "good smarts".

-Dave
 
#17 ·
Yep, I subscribed to the thread Newt :) I'm interested in hearing the answer from them.

davemonkey - I think you are correct. Excel is used quite often in botany and other areas of research to bind proteins, and even to "fix," or "cross-link" DNA. I don't think it works well on normal plants because they have somewhat more resistant epithelial cells than algae does. This is probably why plants like riccia can't handle excel.
 
#19 ·
Maybe you didn't ask the right question?

Has anything been done to reduce the level of gluteraldehyde impurities in the product?

A new batch of polygluXXX (whatever it is) may have less gluteraldehyde as an impurity than pervious batches.

I had an old bottle that I threw away a few weeks ago. If I still had it I might be able to do an HPLC and compare it to the new stuff.
 
#20 ·
Hmm. Still, something might have changed. Perhaps the algae has simply developed a resistance and been spread around from person to person... or maybe it was just the conditions in my tank that made it seem like the algae was more resistant and in fact, it is still as susceptible as it has always been...
 
#22 ·
Ah, I think the SeaChem guys mean what they say.

There are literally thousands of varieties of algae. Not all BBA varieties are created equal. It's pretty easy to imagine strains that are more susceptible than others.

Excel's algicidal properties aren't those that an organism could develop resistance to any easier than an organism could develop resistance to acid or fire. Glutaraldehyde is inherently toxic!
 
#23 ·
BryceM I agree with what you say about not all BBA being equal and perhaps that is why the BBA is being more difficult to kill off. Do you know if BBA sexually reproduces? Or does it just fragment and reattach in some way?

But, organisms most certainly can become resistant to disinfectants like gluteraldehyde! If the excel isn't applied in adequate concentrations to fully kill off the BBA then more resistant strains can survive and refine their resistance over time.

Currently there is a lot of research going into bacterial resistance to disinfectants since it is of huge concern in hospitals. But the same is true of algae in our aquariums and virtually any other living creature.

Innovations Report said:
The scientists discovered that different bacteria and different strains of the same bacteria have different levels of resistance to disinfectants and antiseptics. The researchers have found genes in some strains of MRSA which allow the bacteria to make pumps in their cells which remove the disinfectants from the cell to avoid damage.
Some extra links :)
http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/medizin_gesundheit/bericht-33230.html
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00868.htm
 
#24 ·
Organisms have developed resistance to acid water with pH values at 2 or less and other organisms thriving in boiling water at volcanic vents on the sea bed.
 
#25 ·
Any organism that reproduces quickly and or in large quantity has more of an ability to shift genetically. There are a very small number of mutations, of various sorts that very naturally occur but in a large population of young (sometimes literally millions) it is relatively easy to have a changed organism show up, especially if situations are controlled to allow a new and interesting form to survive.

It is not likely that we are breeding a resistant strain of Algae but it is certainly possible.
 
#26 ·
Yes, there are organisms that thrive in a low pH, but I'm not sure that one would describe that ability as an acquired resistance. Those same organisms would die very quickly in another environment. What they have is more an adaptation to their respective niche.

I'll guess where there may be some wiggle room here is in a dilute concentration of glutaraldehyde. In a strong glutaraldehyde solution any living cell or bacterium will be killed almost immediately. The stuff indiscriminately cross-links proteins and wreaks all sorts of bio-molecular havoc. In contrast, penicillin-resistant bacteria can live perfectly well in enormously high concentrations of the stuff. The specific mechanisms of toxicity are different. Antibiotics (on which models of drug resistance are based) are fairly discrete in their mechanism of action. Almost all of them work to inhibit a single biochemical process. Most antiseptics are rather crude in comparison, destroying or denaturing proteins willy-nilly (to use the technical term).

In a dilute solution environment, like at typical aquarium doses, it's easy to imagine a scenario where the susceptible species of BBA were killed off and more difficult-to-eradicate species have taken over. That isn't so much a matter of acquired resistance as it is one of species selection.

Who knows.

I'm actually inclined to believe that what we're talking about here are a series of unrelated anecdotal experiences. The 100 people for whom glutaraldehyde have been working remain quiet while the other 6 speak up and get a thread moving. Scientifically proving anything with these sort of "studies" just isn't going to happen.
 
#27 ·
In a dilute solution environment, like at typical aquarium doses, it's easy to imagine a scenario where the susceptible species of BBA were killed off and more difficult-to-eradicate species have taken over. That isn't so much a matter of acquired resistance as it is one of species selection.
True, true... I am inclined to believe something along these lines as well.

I'm actually inclined to believe that what we're talking about here are a series of unrelated anecdotal experiences. The 100 people for whom glutaraldehyde have been working remain quiet while the other 6 speak up and get a thread moving. Scientifically proving anything with these sort of "studies" just isn't going to happen.
Ahh so true... what a pity anecdotal experiences aren't very useful. Still though, there is some use in them. After all psychology is based off them.

I wonder if at some point in the future it might become possible to organize some research on aquatic plant issues between serious hobbyists. Perhaps some kind of collaboration on a few of the most important problems.
 
#28 ·
I wonder if at some point in the future it might become possible to organize some research on aquatic plant issues between serious hobbyists. Perhaps some kind of collaboration on a few of the most important problems.
The problem with this is most of us aren't willing to sacrifice our manicured tanks to run any experiments. Doing it right would entail exact conditions for all tested tanks (water, lighting, ferts, fish, etc), then throw in the variable you're testing and appropriate controls - you're talking a minimum of 2 tanks per tested variable. Unless you work in a lab, not feasible for most folks.
 
#29 ·
Wouldn't it be great though to create a lab just for the purpose. Imagine 50 or 60 identical 50g tanks, all set up with identical systems of lighting, plumbing, filtration, etc. It would be a simple matter to change and observe a single variable over relatively short amounts of time. Add to this some lab-quality light meters, nutrient level monitors and precision metering equipment.

That would shed some light on a few issues in short order. In 10 minutes I could probably come up with enough experiments to last five years.
 
#30 ·
Hehe it would be great! I have too many 10 gal tanks that aren't being used at the moment and a plethora of extra equipment. I'd be willing to set up a test or two if someone else wants to as well. :)

Maybe we can start a new forum for members who want to set up controlled experiments and title it "Advancement of Aquatic Issues" or AAI for short.
 
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