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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,
I think this is my first tank post. I've gone long enough already without asking for help.
i don't know if there's a specific structure for this but here's the info.
30 gal
jc&p aquarium light, only on like the second setting of nine. 6 hr photoperiod.
half topsoil mix, capped with pool filter , sand. lifted at points by lava rocks to almost 8 in height. and a tray of controsoil xs in the middle.
7.2 pH, <6.0 with CO2 injection. 2 hrs before light on , and 1 hours before light turns off. in order to have EDTA available during the day.
I dose dry. EI macros, daily Csm+b at 0.2, and now i am using ferrous gluc daily.
dgH of 5
dkH of 4 but eventually want 1-2 when Ro unit is fixed.
Let me know if I'm missing anything.
Now to describe the deficiencies.
Initially the tank had lots of issues (didn't have co2 etc.), unfortunate cause it shouldn't be that hard to keep a tank alive low-tech, cause comsumption of everything would be so much less.
but nevertheless , when it was"sorted" out the first deficiency i could tell was super shrunken leaves in new growth of stems. my mayaca shrunk to around 4mm wide lol.
But that was seemingly fixed when i upped my K. (older growth has holes that fit K deficiency)
however I'm still struggling with this same dwarfed stem deficiency in my 10s , low tech, and my diy co2 (which are both using the same light bar).
Now the consistent deficiency in the high tech is lobular bright yellow leaves , with visible veins.
stems seem to prefer growing in what resembles their emmersed form
I've had non stop diatoms for like a month or two now.
diatoms. everywhere. always.

crypt leaves unable to unfurl/very thin undeveloped

the newest deficiency is twisted, wrinkled new growth in stems.
at first i think they curled from the tip in, but now they curl in/get wavy from the sides of leaf.
my pink flamingo leaves are curling up.
the bright growth seems to be representative of iron or some similar immobile deficiency. even with dosing 0.2ppm Csm+b and now nearly 0.18ppm ferrous gluc. but it looks like it's not helping. and i know I'll also be getting dtpa iron soon too.
here in a bit i plan to try edta chelated micros.

I'll attach photos. I'd really appreciate some help.


Flower Plant Terrestrial plant Groundcover Flowering plant

Plant Terrestrial plant Groundcover Twig Flowering plant

Plant Leaf Terrestrial plant Aquatic plant Groundcover

Plant Terrestrial plant Twig Wood Groundcover

Plant Botany Terrestrial plant Evergreen Groundcover


and this is the tiny growth in the ten gal

Plant Sunlight Grass Wood Atmospheric phenomenon
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
on the high tech? yes, i do the required weekly water waste ,
ten gals less wc and maybe it's low light but there's still clearly something go cause it's not normal it's all about balance and i can't find it lol.
cause i lifted the light bar up even more to a point where I wasn't getting algae, then I try to control the light more with floating plants. i dose ferts in there about weekly now, and starting today I'm going to be dosing 0.05ppm gluconate a day in the ten gals.

back to the high tech.

I‘d cut the EI amount in half. It’s too much
i was doing this originally and i seemed to do nothing, actually i was K deficient. I'm not even dosing No3 atm cause it's in excess.
total K my tank is happy with is just below 10ppm, which is definitely not half. in my case. phosphates r good too around 1.3ppm a dose

doesn't that like go against the one and only Mr Barrs theory? everything can be in excess. do let me know if I'm wrong.
tell me WHICH macro in your experience causes difficulty uptaking micros. which micros? Recently i have been told about the sulfate based micros- and carbonate reaction.
I'd appreciate a solid answer on the wavyness cause that's the most obvious deficiency besides the one that still appears to be Fe.

I didn't include a full tank pic , I'll upate later.
 

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EI works in theory. I'm not sure about mass practice. If you need to add K, you can add KCl or K-gluconate. They're easy to find.
Curly new leaves can be caused by low calcium or Available micros.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
EI works in theory. I'm not sure about mass practice. If you need to add K, you can add KCl or K-gluconate. They're easy to find.
Curly new leaves can be caused by low calcium or Available micros.
i guess i need to get a Ca test. I'll dose Mg and Ca to see if anything gets better. I have K2SO4 for my source of K.
any idea for the pale new growth? do i need to increase my iron even higher than i mentioned?
Available micros.
u mean unavailable?
what would cause this unavailability besides the carbonate , sulfate micro reactions. do i up my csmb even more ?
and what abt the everlasting diatoms?
 

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Excess K is causing Ca and Fe Deficiency.

Increasing K will increase the uptake of Anion which is N and P for Macro. S, as secondary and Cl, B Mo as micro

If N or P bottom out or go out of balance in the water column / substrate, the plant will start to stunt while K is still continuing to push the plant to grow and reabsorbing the lower portion of the plant.

If you have holes before you increase K, and increasing K stunt the plant new growth, chances are you have a phosphate imbalance. Reason why you see a lot of people able dose high amount of K without issue is because they have relatively high Ca and Mg to balance out the cation ratio and or they have nutrient rich substrate for the plant to pull nutrients from.

Fish poop takes much longer for microbes to breakdown into plant useable form compared to nitrogen which can be use in NH4 / NO3 form. Gravel vac negate the aged poop being built up in the tank.

you can increase macro N P, secondary Ca, Mg S, and trace to balance out the excess K or reduce K to balance out with the other.

Try reducing K2SO4 / KNO3 dose; Increase KH2PO4 dose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for the reply but I'm quite sure that cannot be the issue.
Lack of Phosphorus is often characterized by Green string algae right? never had that only tons of diatoms. and two irrelevant tiny green dots on the aquasoil. Phosphates dosed at around 1.3ppm Mon Weds Fri. Law of the minimum leads me to think the deficiency is something else. it's got to be bottomed out completely to be unuseable right? Macros are now all good, i will dose a little of each Mg and Ca to eliminate those.
My nitrates have been orange or red this whole time.
Fish poop takes much longer for microbes to breakdown into plant useable form compared to nitrogen which can be use in NH4 / NO3 form. Gravel vac negate the aged poop being built up in the tank.
i don't have any fish in this tank. these issues have been keeping me from feeling comfy to add any livestock but a nerite. the lack of growth is pretty irritating.

K is definitely not being dosed in excess. i meant i eliminated that deficiency but upping my total K to like 10ppm. there's people dosing 20, 30, i swear i read 50ppm somewhere.

My gh is 5, i believe i read plants need roughly 1 degree of each.



so they are challenging EI theory? i find it hard to believe every single aquarist with a successful planted tank micromanages the present ionic levels of each nutrient as easy as it probably is it doesn't seem exact or a viable solution.

i wish i could report the effects of a good micro mix to compare, maybe then the answers would all be more clear.

I haven't had much mobile nutrient deficiency. any new growth has been entirely stunted. like do stems even grow? i feel im going crazy
anything that gets pushed out of the stem looks like those round pale emmersed leaves.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I've had success with EI and microdosing. I'm sticking to microdosing to control beard algae and to buy fewer ferts.
dosing minimal sounds ideal and it's probably easier on the wallet especially if u have multiple tanks.
EI isn't my preferred method I've learnt.
but i just need to see some successful proper growth. for the wavyness it's really either Ca, Mg, Zn or some other small trace.
The paleness could be iron or anything else immobile. I've got that much.

I'm dosing the minerals tonight. after that if it's still present it's probably some trace.

i wasn't really feeling the idea of the already made ferts. but i wish i could get better micro results. i didn't read enough about csm+b.
 

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Pale leaves can be low N too.
Some people are totally against dosing NO3, saying plants have a hard time using it. Most of us have fish so we get NH3/4 from them. You can microdose ammonia chloride and see.
 

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Thanks for the reply but I'm quite sure that cannot be the issue.
Lack of Phosphorus is often characterized by Green string algae right? never had that only tons of diatoms. and two irrelevant tiny green dots on the aquasoil. Phosphates dosed at around 1.3ppm Mon Weds Fri. Law of the minimum leads me to think the deficiency is something else. it's got to be bottomed out completely to be unuseable right? Macros are now all good, i will dose a little of each Mg and Ca to eliminate those.
My nitrates have been orange or red this whole time.

i don't have any fish in this tank. these issues have been keeping me from feeling comfy to add any livestock but a nerite. the lack of growth is pretty irritating.

K is definitely not being dosed in excess. i meant i eliminated that deficiency but upping my total K to like 10ppm. there's people dosing 20, 30, i swear i read 50ppm somewhere.

My gh is 5, i believe i read plants need roughly 1 degree of each.


so they are challenging EI theory? i find it hard to believe every single aquarist with a successful planted tank micromanages the present ionic levels of each nutrient as easy as it probably is it doesn't seem exact or a viable solution.

i wish i could report the effects of a good micro mix to compare, maybe then the answers would all be more clear.

I haven't had much mobile nutrient deficiency. any new growth has been entirely stunted. like do stems even grow? i feel im going crazy
anything that gets pushed out of the stem looks like those round pale emmersed leaves.
That website is for hydroponic and the article is science with how fertilizer ratio interact with one another.
Hydroponic food production runs their Electrical conductivity much higher than EI. 100 ppm K is relatively low in a lot of cases.

This is not about excess in terms of 50 ppm, but excess relative to N and P Ca, Mg etc. When things are out of balance plant start to suffer. No one is questioning if EI works or not. Even people using EI make adjustments from the dosing ratio based on how the plant respond to their dosing. Some dose a lot more P and or N than the guideline by EI.

I have said already, If increasing potassium is causing other symptoms to appear, then increase the other element to remove the issue caused by the increase in potassium or lower potassium and then adjust the other to fix what was caused by the initial symptoms.

People do large water change each week to reset the parameter from accumulation with dosing excess.

A ratio is the relation between one and other. whether its 1-1-1 or 2-2-2. they are still the same ratio. only different is strength.

Assume nothing bottom out to 0
For example, if increasing K causes P deficiency, then alternatively one can increase P or reduce K and lower N by a bit.
start at 1-1-1 increase to 1-1-2 because of K "deficiency" symptoms then this cause P "deficiency" symptoms
Next step is to either do 1-2-2 or go 0.5-1-1

A lot of plant in general prefer Ca and K at 0.8 - 1 to 1 ratio. usually dosing Ca to K as a ratio varies from about 50% to 100% of K depending on source water. This makes liquid rock harder to fine tune. Increasing K balance out the ratio between Ca but lead to other deficiencies because the rest of the cation will have to go up as well to keep the ratio in check.

5 gH should be plenty if the Ca and Mg ratio is within the ratio range - 3:1 to 5:1.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
That website is for hydroponic and the article is science with how fertilizer ratio interact with one another.
Hydroponic food production runs their Electrical conductivity much higher than EI. 100 ppm K is relatively low in a lot of cases.

This is not about excess in terms of 50 ppm, but excess relative to N and P Ca, Mg etc. When things are out of balance plant start to suffer. No one is questioning if EI works or not. Even people using EI make adjustments from the dosing ratio based on how the plant respond to their dosing. Some dose a lot more P and or N than the guideline by EI.

I have said already, If increasing potassium is causing other symptoms to appear, then increase the other element to remove the issue caused by the increase in potassium or lower potassium and then adjust the other to fix what was caused by the initial symptoms.

People do large water change each week to reset the parameter from accumulation with dosing excess.

A ratio is the relation between one and other. whether its 1-1-1 or 2-2-2. they are still the same ratio. only different is strength.

Assume nothing bottom out to 0
For example, if increasing K causes P deficiency, then alternatively one can increase P or reduce K and lower N by a bit.
start at 1-1-1 increase to 1-1-2 because of K "deficiency" symptoms then this cause P "deficiency" symptoms
Next step is to either do 1-2-2 or go 0.5-1-1

A lot of plant in general prefer Ca and K at 0.8 - 1 to 1 ratio. usually dosing Ca to K as a ratio varies from about 50% to 100% of K depending on source water. This makes liquid rock harder to fine tune. Increasing K balance out the ratio between Ca but lead to other deficiencies because the rest of the cation will have to go up as well to keep the ratio in check.

5 gH should be plenty if the Ca and Mg ratio is within the ratio range - 3:1 to 5:1.
The only freshwater Calcium test is fluval and they make me barf. although i would like to know my Ca to Mg ratio.
How come completely clueless people can easily keep a better tank? I'm really thinking my tap water may be deficient in some trace. I'm definitely not dosing too much K , only 10ppm. and the mineral-related looking leaf wrinkles didn't change with the addition of Ca. Now I'll try Mg and see but i feel like I'm missing something big here the tank can't look this bad just for something as small as N being in the form of ammonium vs nitrate. the plants could still pull it. or some slight imbalance in my minerals. the tank couldn't be this stunted just cause of that right?
keep in mind my deficiencies are wrinkled curled leaves, pale iron-looking deficiency, and extreme diatoms. and a recent appearance of a tiny bit of green string algae.
now I've been dosing no3 free macro solution as i had more than enough everytime I've tested. i really think the answer has been going over my head.
like others can keep a healthy tank , it's just doesn't seem right.
Maybe my scale is wrong. but the cup i measure in weighs the same everytime before i tare.
NOTE I'm having the curly leaves in my RO tank too!! as well as the dwarfed stem growth.
Flower Plant Terrestrial plant Groundcover Flowering plant

Below is my low tech vase that ALSO has the curly leaves.
Plant Houseplant Flowerpot Terrestrial plant Grass

Plant Terrestrial plant Twig Wood Groundcover

Flower Plant Terrestrial plant Petal Flowering plant
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
slightly longer internodes, while the dwarfed growth has mostly improved, only to show up again occasionally. oddly after macros day. (i dose micros everyday)
rotala have been growing a bit better with the exception of one single REALLY odd stem that turned into a gnarled tiny shriveled mess.
some plants haven't really put out new growth at all. which leads me to believe it may be something my tap water, and csm+b doesn't have.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
i still haven't dosed Mg yet, but it seems the curling leaves, and wrinkled rotala have decreased a decent amount.


and like again why would my tds shoot up after only dosing ~15ppm? odd i know there's not 150+ppm sulfate. right?
 
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